Use of safety in production class (CZ hammer actions)

[StraightSh00ter]

Hi everyone,

I am just in the learning stage of practical shooting and have spent a decent amount of time researching and trying various pistols. As my favorite guns are all hammer action, I will have to choose between manual safety vs decocker at some point.

My question is: when (if ever) do you use the safety in production class? My understanding is that the gun is always holstered with the hammer decocked, where the (CZ 75 style) safety is not used and basically inoperable in that condition. Since I have never physically ran around with a loaded pistol I was wondering if some people might use the safety between shooting stations.

I know there are some threads about which is 'better' for contest shooting; my goal is to understand where a safety might be beneficial in production class (from a safety standpoint) so that I can make my own decision, or at least understand the reasoning behind others' suggestions. It seems like I should get a better understanding of the firing mechanism of a particular gun, and what would happen during a fall or drop from a ready-fire position, will be required before ultimately making that choice.

Thanks for reading and any thoughts/experiences you care to share

Joe

Edited January 18, 2015 by StraightSh00ter

[Smitty79]

I'm still fairly new. I shoot a CZ with a safety in Production. I've never used the safety shooting Production. All of the reading that I've done seems to indicate that you can make the trigger of a safety model better than a decocker model.

If you look at the top 16 guys in the 2014 Production nationals, I think all of the hammer fired guys used safety guns.

[2MoreChains]

I typically don't flick on my CZ's safety during a stage until I get to ULASC. And even then, that's probably just more out of habit from shooting 1911/2011's than anything else.

[trgt]

... when (if ever) do you use the safety in production class? ...

For USPSA production, the CZ safety is not used.

- When gun is unloaded, you leave safety down

- When you have a round chambered, and manually bring hammer down at make ready, again, you are not using safety.

In fact, i've gone to the thin safeties to keep them out of the way, I was accidentally flicking it up during reload with wider SP01 Shadow safeties.

But if I was using this gun for 3GUN or Limited/L10 Minor, I'd leave the SP01 safeties there as both of these you'd start cocked and locked then need to engage safety at start when holstering or before 'dumping' loaded gun during 3gun stage.

Edited January 18, 2015 by trgt

[Nimitz]

other than fighting to reinstall it when i have to take the gun apart for cleaning i never touch it ...

Edited January 19, 2015 by Nimitz

[bc361]

I dont know of any shooter production or otherwise that flicks on their safety between shooting positions. Everyone that I've witnessed just takes their finger off the trigger.

[Sarge]

There was some discussion awhile back about any gun(not just CZ) with a safety being applied while moving anything other than a few steps. I was kind of surprised at the number of guys who said they do it. I guess if you got really instinctive about it it could be done. But in a game of speed we need to cut corners as much as possible. I never put my safety on once I start a stage but I would like to think I might be able to flip it on if I am for certain getting ready to do a header into a barricade or do an end over end fall. If I did drop it it would at least be safer. Generally this stuff happens so fast though that might just be wishful thinking.

I might suggest to the OP that if he gets a CZ for Production DIVISION, he might want to put the safety on while moving for the first few attempts until he is more comfortable with running with a loaded gun. I run new shooters every once in awhile that are very deliberate in their gun handling and put the safety on after each array. Nothing at all wrong with being safe!

[bikerburgess]

I use the safety if I am moving a long way or if there is something that could cause a crash in my path.

[akeefer]

Please forgive me if I'm mixing up disciplines, but don't you have to apply the safety when you holster the gun? I thought that was the speed advantage to a Glock?

Thanks

[Sarge]

Please forgive me if I'm mixing up disciplines, but don't you have to apply the safety when you holster the gun? I thought that was the speed advantage to a Glock?

Thanks

of course you do! We are talking on the clock

[2MoreChains]

Please forgive me if I'm mixing up disciplines, but don't you have to apply the safety when you holster the gun? I thought that was the speed advantage to a Glock?

Thanks

Not if it is a DA/SA gun like the CZ-75. Hammer down at the start.

[StraightSh00ter]

Thank you all for the replies - it is what I was expecting to hear. I'm just weighing out pros and cons of manual safety vs decocker. It seems the manual safety gets an advantage for a better trigger pull, which for me might not be a huge advantage (being new), and has risk of accidental safe mode which would cost a lot more time than the trigger saved. But there could be some times where you want a safety.The decocker gets an advantage for semi-cocked hammer during the first DA pull, and for less risk of discharging during decocking (I don't know how often that really happens, but I imagine it does sometimes). The trigger action is supposedly a disadvantage but it sounds like a little help from CGW or CZC could take care of that for not much money or effort, if that is production legal.

For a new shooter in production it seems like a decocker model makes more sense.

I will compare the two models dry and see if I can find some way to fire a decocker model. I'll also think about wherever else I might use the gun and if I would want a safety or not, but really I have no idea. I was just getting used to shooting with my strong thumb above the safety (got me out to 25 yards!!), and I practiced manual decocking which really doesn't seem like a big deal if you handle the gun safely (other than the fact you get sent home if the hammer slips).

Edited January 19, 2015 by StraightSh00ter

[mike4540]

I do not use the safety on my CZ either , just put the hammer down and go from there.

[jroback]

One additional factor which I have heard is that its harder to disassemble and reassemble a decocker model. I am no kind of gunsmith, but I can (barely) take my CZ 75 with a safety apart and then reassemble it. So I would have no interest in anything harder to work on.

[Smitty79]

For a new shooter in production it seems like a decocker model makes more sense.

I strongly disagree. I believe most people ride their strong hand on the safety of CZs, Tanfos and 1911s. It is a great index point to make your grip and draw consistent. I don't think I've ever seen an accidental on of a safety at a match. I've never even heard someone say they'd seen it done. I'm sure it's possible.

I don't think I've seen someone shoot a decocker gun at a match unless they were using it while waiting for something better or they were using it because it was their service weapon. Someone's going to point out that Ben Stoeger shot a Beretta with a combination decocker safety. He could beat most of us using 160 grain bullets out of a pea shooter.

By reputation, safety guns can have their triggers tuned better. If you are thinking CZ(Full discloser, I have my 3rd one coming soon), ask the opinion of eerw (Works for CZ Custom Shop) or Kneelingatlas (The local shade tree gunsmith CZ and clone expert)

My advice, get a Production legal Shadow from either CZ Custom or Cajun Gun Works. If that's too spendy, get an SP-01 and gradually upgrade it doing most of the work yourself. Kneelingatlas has a popular guide on how to do it.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Smitty79

[rowdyb]

I too have switched to the slim safeties on all my CZ's. For Production I never ever touch the safety. Not running around, not in the holster, not make ready. Never.

With a safety gun you can take out the sear assembly in one chunk. With a decocker gun the sear comes out in its individual pieces when you strip it all the way down. As the sear assembly is the trickiest part, not having it come a part is very nice when doing a deep clean (you can still clean it really well in its normal state out of the gun) or adding parts for modification.

As you've manually lowered the hammer at the start and your finger is off the trigger when running and reloading, the safety lever is a non issue.

[BeerBaron]

Please forgive me if I'm mixing up disciplines, but don't you have to apply the safety when you holster the gun? I thought that was the speed advantage to a Glock?

Thanks

nope. it goes into the holster with a loaded holster and the hammer down. just like a glock you pull it out and pull the trigger. nothing else needs to be done. unlike a glock after that first 5lb pull it moves to a much shorter and lighter pull around 2-3lb.

I have never used the safety on any of my DA/SA guns (stock II and a couple of shadows). you just dont need it. that's the point of the DA first shot.

when moving between positions on the stage it's up to you. if you feel more comfortable with the safety on while moving then do it. Just don't let it lull you into a sense of security that may cause you to muzzle something or get your finger on trigger etc. sometimes it's good to have full awareness that the pistol you're carrying is loaded and ready to fire. keeps your finger away from the trigger and keeps you cautious with the muzzle angle.

[BeerBaron]

I also agree that the safety model is a better choice over the decocker model.

aside from the trigger and assembly benefits more of the 'better' models are safety models (shadows for instance). it does also give a nice platform for your thumb which when you're starting out will help you build a decent grip. as you get more advanced you might want to switch to the flatter safeties but at least you'll have that option.

it also gives the flexibility to run it 'cocked and locked' in other matches if you chose to. or get full cap mags and run in limited for example.

the lowering the hammer is a total non issue even for a new shooter. literally 10 min of dry fire practice and you'll have it down cold.

the SP01 is probably the better value of the lot. 90% of a shadow for less than 90% of the cost. otherwise find a shadow (hard to find in standard form), or buy one of the customised shadows from the various smiths who sell them (CGW, CZC, Mink etc).

[StraightSh00ter]

Thanks guys. Fortunately or unfortunately I compared the safety and decocker models in the store today. I will preface that by saying that I hated the position of the safety the first time I tried a CZ, but then went online and realized you guys are gripping the gun with your strong thumb above the safety (also based on the shape of the safety on the competition guns). So the next 2 times I shot CZ I had strong thumb above safety, better weak hand grip, and I noticed a substantial improvement in my shooting. When I held the decocker model toda, I didn't know where to put my thumb without affecting my weak hand grip and found it to be a turn-off.

The 75B SA is what they have at the range. It has a smaller safety - not Rami/Shadow thin size, but not much bigger. It is just enough of a 'lip' to know my strong thumb is resting above it, but not big enough to really rest or put pressure on - which I think is probably a good thing.

I also watched some videos on CZ upgrades and was OK with working on the ejector (sear) assembly, but not having those parts as an assembly in the decocker does sound like a PITA.

I don't know what the end result will be - the Shadow has a nice benefit (to me) of the milled rear slide, where the safeties for that slide seem to fit my preference a little better.

Not safety related, but what I was ultimately after:

I've definitely narrowed it down to some model CZ and the Springfield XD. The Springfield is lighter and seems quicker to get to the first shot, and my aim seems decent for center of mass. I find it to be the smoothest and most accurate striker fired gun. The CZ might be slower and heavier but my accuracy is a lot better and once I find the sight picture it's easier stay on target.

I have shot 350-400 rounds over the past week (since I started shooting last week). With the Springfield, I was shooting from 15 yards with absolute confidence I would hit center mass of a 5" target. I had good groups but no holes bigger than 2-3 rounds. With the CZ, it seems like a little extra effort to find the sight picture, but I had the confidence/ability to pick off corners of the targets (squares, triangles, etc) from the same distance, and not just aim center mass. The Springfield seems like an easier and less expensive gun to get started with, the CZ seems a little more complex and costly, but I feel like it's comparing a Corvette to an Indy car.

If I ever wanted to do anything with higher precision shooting, the CZ would be a no-brainer. If my goal was only for a production division USPSA match, the Springfield would probably get me going quicker with good scores. I think the CZ will have a slower start but a much steeper improvement curve.

Ok I've ridden this horse hard this week - I think I need to give it a rest for a few days

Thanks again for all your comments - I know this started as a conversation on safety usage and I morphed it into a 'which gun to buy', but I appreciate any related thoughts/comments/advice you might have.

Joe

[BeerBaron]

I should mention one other thing. often guys pick up a shadow, or SP01 etc in a shop and try the lowering the hammer (dry of course) and feel it's really hard. That's because it still has the factory hammer spring in there. Once you get the pistol you can easily (like 1 minute job) replace that for a 13lb or 11.5lb hammer spring and the lighter hammer spring also makes manually lowering the hammer so much easier. so don't get put off if you handle a brand new gun and it feels really hard to lower the hammer. it's easily fixed.

[Smitty79]

One more time. For Production, get an SP-01. A Shadow variant if you can. But get the CZ. Manual decocking is scary at first. 2 months later, it's second nature.