Smitty79 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I've read, on a forum less traveled than this one, that if you bullet is too long for you barrel twist rate, you can see good accuracy out to a certain distance and then things get worse as the bullet becomes less stable. I think I am seeing that with my loads. I am shooting a CZ85 using Blue Bullet 147 flat points. After a disastrous Area 5 Standards classifier last month, I've started to shoot some 50 yds stuff to understand how my gun shoots at that range. Freestyle, I get groups as follows: 15 yds, 3.5 inches 25 yds 6 inches 50 yds, they aren't all on a metric target. The most recent time I did this, I shot 10 rounds. I had 8 As and Cs, no Ds and 2 misses. I didn't call any misses. The ones on the target were about a 13 inch group. I haven't tried from a bench yet, but it shouldn't matter that much for this data. Bad ammo? Old eyes? Unstable bullets? If I hadn't taken engineering courses in college, I wouldn't consider this possible. But in fluid flow (Air is a fluid for this discussion), there is a characteristic distance were flows become unstable. Looks at the smoke coming off the end of a cigarette. A few inches above the tip, the smoke flow transitions from smooth to turbulent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Are they key holing? If not they are probably stable. 6" @ 25 I wouldn't expect much @ 50. Double the distance is probably going to double the group. I would guess shooter is a lot of it. Try it from a bench, and put a dot on it if you can. This will give you a better idea of what the gun can do. Make adjustments to your load and see if it improves. Then practice more at 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowenbuilt Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I call it normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I've shot them freehand out of a Glock 34 (1.130 COAL, Minor PF, VVN320) to 50 yards at a Widener's 1/2 size steel silhouette (smaller than a Classic target) with good success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Try it from a bench, and put a dot on it if you can. +1. I agree that benching it will make a big difference in understanding what is happening. And, an optical sight is a great idea, if possible. Other factors that might be involved include your eyesight and/or the sights you're using. Good luck with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowenbuilt Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 6" groups at 25 yards will normally equate to 13" groups at 50. Double the distance will just about double the group size every time. I would work on the 25 yard group first, when it gets smaller the 50 yard group should follow. According to your post you are pretty consistent at the 2 ranges. If you improve the 25 yard group your 50 yard group will follow. That is why I said it looks normal to me as that is exactly what I would expect to happen at 50 yards. Shooting off the bench will tell you what the gun is capable of and also let you know your own capability. This is sometimes humbling but according to your post between the 2 distances I would say you are doing your part quite admirably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 what powder are you using and what is your crimp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) I don't think it matters what you are shooting accuracy almost always gets worse with distance. For example let's say at zero yards the group size is 0", at 100 yards it will be bigger and at 1000 yards even bigger. Even in a perfect world that will be the case. The guys shooting a 10" group (or less) at 1000 yds have a gun that would shoot one hole at 100. Edited January 3, 2015 by jmorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I don't think it matters what you are shooting accuracy almost always gets worse with distance. For example let's say at zero yards the group size is 0", at 100 yards it will be bigger and at 1000 yards even bigger. Even in a perfect world that will be the case. The guys shooting a 10" group (or less) at 1000 yds have a gun that would shoot one hole at 100. I shoot my best groups at zero yds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Don't we all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm going to have to argue semantics with you jmorris, although I agree with what your getting at. Accuracy does not necessarily get worse at distance. If we where to picture our shooting 2 dimensionally from the side for simplicity, we would see the dispersion of our groups as a cone shape, obviously the pointy end being our muzzle. As stated above, double the distance, double the group size. This is not accuracy degradation, it's the exact same accuracy but with the dispersion growing the way a cone will if you elongate it. Also, while I'm sure it applies to all bullets, was this forum you where reading on discussing rifle bullets Smitty79? This is a common topic in rifle shooting but I've never heard of bullet length or weight vs. twist rate problems in pistols, especially at normal pistol shooting ranges. So I guess what I'm getting at is 6"@25yds=12"@50yds, it's the exact same group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfSpartans Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Grab a pistol with a laser on it. Freestyle grip. Aim at something 25 yards away and try to hold your sights still. Have somebody video what the laser is doing on the target. You may find your answer right there....... Imagine it at 50 yards now.......We had a 2Gun stage a couple months ago with a full size steel at 50 and one at 100 yards. It was.........fun. Yes.....that's it.......fun. I hit them both on the first shot. I was surprised. Yea. Surprised....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Accuracy does not necessarily get worse at distance. Accuracy is the quality or state of being correct or precise. The value of "correct" is a vairable but once you set a value your "cone" will at some point become larger than the value. Using a 5" target for example, accuracy will be sufficient as long as you can keep all shots inside 5". As distance between you and the target gets longer you move towards the big end of the cone and at some point you will no longer maintain sufficient accuracy to hit the target. There may be 0 angular degradation as in 1 MOA =1" (actually slightly larger) at 100 yds and 8" at 800 yds and both are the same 1/60th of a degree but that is not the same as being accurate enough to hit a target of a given size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 ^ Like I said, semantics. I don't consider shooting an 8" group at 800 different accuracy than a 1" group at 100. If I'm shooting your 5" target at 100 that requires a 5 moa capable gun. Not hitting the same target at 800 wouldn't mean the accuracy of the bullet or gun degraded, simply that .625 moa minimum is required. Obviously all these numbers we're throwing around are perfect world numbers, not taking atmospherics or shooter skill into account. I think we agree on the overall idea of whats being said, we just have different definitions of accuracy or just word things differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Yes, pretty much. I guess we could say a 1 moa accurate gun would have an effective range of 500 yds on a 5" target. To better fit your definition. Past that it's not accurate enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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