1911 SS Division

[Classic 1911]

Um, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the 10 round rule SHOULD apply for no other reason than course design.

10 round magazines are fine for minor. 8 round magazines are the limit for major in the 1911 Society's Single Stack Classic rules.

The "obvious" point is that a 45ACP 1911 A1 is designed for 8-round maximum magazines. Nothing else fits flush. Nothing else feeds reliably.

Stage designs are not the point. The point is a competitive division for traditional single stack 1911s with correct magazines, not 10-rounders.

We'll shoot whatever stage is thrown at us, but we would prefer to compete in an appropriate division. Let's not forget where and how IPSC started.

[Loves2Shoot]

The "obvious" point is that a 45ACP 1911 A1 is designed for 8-round maximum magazines. Nothing else fits flush. Nothing else feeds reliably.

Hmmm, you might have had a point until that statement. I've 6 10 round mags that feed perfect. WE have a match every year that draws 100+ people shooting single stacks, most chose to use 10 rounds mags. They work pretty dang good.

If my history is right the .38 was the choice before the .45 in the design, so should you ONLY be able to shoot .38's following that logic? I'll bet JBM had a big stick too

My main point was that 10 round friendly courses in the year 2005 is reasonable. 8 for "histories sake" puts un-needed restrictions in course design. Why not go to 5 rounds for the sake of the handfull of wheelguners out there?

Just silly in my view, lots of great 10 round mags out there for the .45. It's a game, and making it fun for everyone shouldn't make it harder for the dedicated few that put on the matches.

[Classic 1911]

The 38 Super cartridge was developed about 20 years after the 1911.

Visit http://www.1911society.org/ to understand my point.

We don't want to use extended magazines and shouldn't have to to be competitive.

And once again, it has nothing to do with stage design.

[Loves2Shoot]

The 38 Super cartridge was developed about 20 years after the 1911.

Visit http://www.1911society.org/ to understand my point.

We don't want to use extended magazines and shouldn't have to to be competitive.

And once again, it has nothing to do with stage design.

Sorry, I guess I was just thinking you wanted to play in USPSA where round count does matter when designing stages to suit the different divisions that play together.

[JT Johnson]

It is the 10 round magazine rule in Limited 10 that 1911 advocates abhor and that keeps them away from USPSA. Magazines must fit flush and must be single stack. Holsters must be practical with a capital P.

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We'll shoot whatever stage is thrown at us, but we would prefer to compete in an appropriate division. Let's not forget where and how IPSC started.

What else is practical for 1911 advocates?

Only 230 fmj bullets at 850fps?

Lanyard loop on my mainspring housing?

Will beavertails be allowed?

Personnally, I don't think we should care how and where IPSC started. We should be looking at where we need to be going, and how we are going to get there.

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I look at a single stack division as a good thing to get more shooters to matches, but I also think we should be deciding whether or not we are practical shooting or a shooting sport. The rules for single stack division will be very easy to decide once a path is picked.

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I retract my proposal for a THROWING KNIFE division.

I am now in support of the THROWING GRENADE division!!

[iweiny]

I probably do not have a right to even have an opinion, since I have only shot IPSC for about 4 months, but I thought I would chime in here with some thoughts.

My wife and I both shoot. I shoot a Les Bear and she a Sig220, both in .45. Truth be told I pretty much forced her to shoot a .45 from the get go because I knew if she learned to shoot it, she would be able to shoot pretty much anything out there. And I was right cause she is beating the pants off of me in PPC.

Anyway, I am a big fan of the 1911. I like the way they fit in my hand. I can't shoot double stack guns because I like the thin grips... My wife LOVES her Sig. She has always like the gun but is very concerned that she has only 8rds... We have bought 10rd mags but they don't work right. So here is the relavance to this thread. There are other guns out there which are not 1911's but "suffer" from the same handicaps as "traditional" 1911's. She is getting to the point of just getting a new gun because she feels she can not compete... I don't know if this is really bad or not for the sport but she gets dissapointed when she sees where she is among the standings. I do keep trying to tell her that the double action trigger, 8rd mags, and shooting full factory loads has an impact. As some have said there are just some guns which are better than others AT SOME THINGS. So if winning is important to her she will need to get a gun which can allow her to do that.

I guess I am a GAMMER because I went out and bought a few 10rd mags. But my reloads are faster with the 8rd so I use them in things like classifiers... ;-) But that bothers me...

But you know what the bottom line is... At the local matches I get beat by production guys all the time. The fact is I have a lot to grow.

You can do lots of things to "GAME" it. Load bunny fart loads. Build your own mags, whatever. the fact is each shooter is doing this for their own reasons. If the reasons are to win then buying/building different equipement is something you have to consider. period. No matter what the sport does short of making a class for each and every gun/load combination (ie infinity) it will not be equal.

On the other hand, if you are like me and want to get better shooting a gun which you bought for many reasons other than and including the game, then you look to yourself to get better. Personally that is what I think the sport should stress to new shooters. Compete against yourself, get good with what you have. Then worry about what divisions you can, or want to, compete in.

Just some thoughts from a new shooter,

Ira

[Classic 1911]

You can do lots of things to "GAME" it. Load bunny fart loads. Build your own mags, whatever.

Warning: Thread drift.

Ira, I like that. Personally, I shoot full power factory 230 grain loads at matches by choice. I think a 165 power factor floor for major is a joke. Firearms are supposed to recoil. Controlling recoil is part of marksmanship, just like lining up a front and back sight and maintaining a sight picture.

Bunny fart

I call them "powder puff" loads.

[MikeFoley]

I retract my proposal for a THROWING KNIFE division.

I am now in support of the THROWING GRENADE division!!

Thanks for supporting this idea.

[MstngLX50]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing a single stack division. When I first started I used a 1911 with 10 round mags which I thought looked ridiculous, but I "felt" I needed them to be competitive(turns out I just sucked). I don't like the idea of limiting equipment placement though. That's why I don't shoot production, well that and the 10 round limit of my hi-cap, but that's not really for this thread.

As to limiting an equipment race in a single stack division I don't really see that as feasible. Short of giving it production like rules at some point long dustcover polymer frames are going to shoot in a single stack division with 8rd mags. It's inevitable, and will be done in fairly short order.

I guess that's really my only concern is that this division will be created with the intention of attracting shooters to a level playing field. When someone shows up to any form of competition it's going to be easier to blame their poor showing on their lack of widget A than a lack of skill or preperation. It certainly was in my case.

As for a grenade throwing division I think that opens up alot of questions ie. what type, how many, shrapnel scoring, equipment placement, not to mention a bomb suit and explosives to clear duds etc... And it would only be a matter of time before someone showed up with a tactical nuke, then MIRV warheads, then no more US or USPSA. Nonetheless I fully support the immediate creation of such a division, and would suggest that we have both a hand thrown limited, and launched open division(must be 40mm for major).

Alan

[MikeFoley]

Hand thrown Limited for me, but if you open guys have a 79 or 203 laying around, then bring it out.

[gmshtr]

I don't know why we feel obligated to adopt everyone else's equipment. What's the difference between a SS shooter having to buy 4 10-round mags and 5 8-rounders? I loved my 10 round mags with my Colt when I shot that in Limited.

Open

Limited

Single Stack

Production

Revolver

Jesus! Isn't that enough?

[tightloop]

There should be a place for SS guns somewhere without having to have the mags hang out the bottom....afterall, they started this sport..

[Flexmoney]

If we had to change (and lack of stability isn't a good thing), then this is what it ought to be...with "no more than 8-shot arrays".

Open

Limited

Limited 8

Production

Revolver

If we lose Limited 10 to single-stack...one of you guys can come explain your grand plan to a couple of the new female shooters that just started shooting last year...with their G23's (that is the small 40).

[Loves2Shoot]

If we lose Limited 10 to single-stack...one of you guys can come explain your grand plan to a couple of the new female shooters that just started shooting last year...with their G23's (that is the small 40).

They take the big mags

[Flexmoney]

[MoNsTeR]

I realize that's at least semi-tongue-in-cheek, but...

It's ok to make L10 shooters lay out for hi-caps but guys with single stacks can't possibly be expected to buy 10-rounders? Please.

[Shipster]

10 round magazines are fine for minor. 8 round magazines are the limit for major in the 1911 Society's Single Stack Classic rules.

The "obvious" point is that a 45ACP 1911 A1 is designed for 8-round maximum magazines. Nothing else fits flush. Nothing else feeds reliably.

Stage designs are not the point. The point is a competitive division for traditional single stack 1911s with correct magazines, not 10-rounders.

We'll shoot whatever stage is thrown at us, but we would prefer to compete in an appropriate division. Let's not forget where and how IPSC started.

This whole thing about the 1911 and where we came from (IPSC) and the 8 rd mag and Blaw Blaw Blaw! So! Okay lets use the the flap leather holsters that was GI issued, and don't forget the lanyard must be used as well, and we'll start the stages with a stop watch and whistle. My god the year is 2005. If you want to reminisce about the old days there already is a sport for that, it's called SASS or cowboy action shooting.

I have considerable money tied up in race equipment for my L10, mags, holster, and belts just like a lot of other people, and if you want to piss a lot of USPSA "MEMBERS" off that already shoot L10, then change L10 to something else. In the area the I shoot Limited is the only class larger then L10 and I think that it would be safe for me to say that 80% of the L10 shooter are using 1911 single stacks.

[gmshtr]

Let's not forget where IPSC is going by focusing too much on where we came from. I'd love to pick up a few single stack shooters, but not at the expense of the current Limited 10 shooters. Who cares if the mags stick out from the gun some????

[AikiDale]

Malthus was wrong. There is enough for everybody.

I would love to see the addition of the SS division using the USPSA/SSC rules.

The reason for adding this division, not replacing another division with it, is because so many of us have SS pistols, from so many manufactures, that ride around on our hips and then get left behind when we go shooting. I shoot Limited AND Limited-10 and would also shoot SS Limited 8 if it were available. I have a CZ-75 I could shoot production with, but it just isn't any fun for me to shoot that loooonnnnnnggggggg double action first shot so I don't. I should be shooting Open within the next couple of weeks, but I would still shoot the SS if there were a place for it.

[MikeFoley]

I'm gonna start a poll on who would participate, and who wouldn't. Look for it.

[JFD]

I'm not sure if the "roots of the sport" is any sort of valid arguement.

The mags and accessories we have now simply weren't available when the sport started. If $24 Power 10s were available at the time, I have a feeling everybody would have been using them.

[nipplehead]

There should be a place for SS guns somewhere without having to have the mags hang out the bottom....afterall, they started this sport..

Ok then no mags hanging out the bottom in any division....That means open and limited.

SS has a place to shoot its called L10

Get the down loaders out, Damn I only have a single stack but if I had a damn Limited gun I would want as much ammo as possisible in it. What s the deal with downloaders anyway .Did you buy a gun you cant compete in your own class with?

Never should USPSA have to change array design to accomadate a new class .This negatively impacts all classes.

And by the way I have CMC, Wilson, and Tripp 10 round mags and they all work flawlessly. If they dont work in your SS check your gun

[Jake Di Vita]

I think someone needs to give this thread and all others which the discussion has not turned stupid (for lack of a better word) to the BOD so they can see exactly where the members stand on this issue.

[MikeFoley]

My Poll on this was very civil and empirical in nature.