Glock Trigger Terminology

[BigBoss]

I would like to open a dialog between all yaw all who love to modify, enhance, adjust, tune up, dial in, tweak, or flat out revise and redesign the Glock Trigger system. If you wake up in the middle of the night and just can’t wait till morning to try out that new mod you just dreamed up. Then it is my sincere hope that this will be a thread you will contribute to as well as learn something from, as there is always an opportunity to learn when humility guides. Primarily it’s all about IMPROVING this system within SAFE parameters. But first it might behoove us to ensure we’re all speaking the same language as to not confuse and bewilder ourselves. Yes, I’m starting this thread however I want to be crystal clear when I say this is more about purpose than personality. I just want to learn as much as the next guy and I really have a passion for these triggers.

So here it goes.

It may be prudent to start with one defining characteristic of this system at a time and proceed from resting trigger position in a cycle returning to starting position. This would mean creating a agreed on definition of pre-travel then we can decide what would be next like maybe wall or first stage bump…

PRE-TRAVEL- in resting position this is the amount of travel needed to engage the first felt palpable contact. In succession -point of contact with the trigger pad/shoe, disengaging the trigger safety tab, counter tensioned reward travel until either engagement with the connector or significant resistance of the connector angle is reached.

Will you Please add or amend or do you have a different definition all together?

[BigBoss]

Old

PRE-TRAVEL- in resting position this is the amount of travel needed to engage the first felt palpable contact. In succession -point of contact with the trigger pad/shoe, disengaging the trigger safety tab, counter tensioned reward travel until either engagement with the connector or significant resistance of the connector angle is reached.

NEW

PRE-TRAVEL- (with the Glock in battery) the distance it will take the static trigger to travel to the point of felt resistance. In succession -point of contact with the trigger pad/shoe, disengaging the trigger safety tab, counter tensioned reward travel until either engagement with the connector or significant resistance of the connector angle is reached.

Next

WALL/PREDICTABLE WALL

This could best be defined as the foremost focal point of palpable/felt resistance. Primarily influenced by different combinations of springs and connectors producing a variety of subjective tactile sensations that range from subtle to exceedingly resistive.

[b1gcountry]

Huh?

[Sarge]

Huh?

Hey, it's New Years Eve give the guy a break! My first clue was when he said he had a "passion" for Glock triggers!

[Scott Steele]

Yep, happy New Year!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[9x45]

Skip all that dialog and get to the part where it goes bang. Talk is worthless, only results count. Stop over-thinking and start shooting competition.

[BigBoss]

My first post was on DEC 23rd, but Thanks Sarge! You guys do what you do(Love to shoot, compete and improve your skill set) and I do what I do(love to shoot, train defensively, but also design, build and try to improve triggers) and we can always find common ground as specially because our chosen love is always being challenged by the masses. In the light of brotherhood for the sport if we can keep it constructive and inclusive then we all stand to learn. I know I'm a total trigger obsessed nerd. Don't worry it will get to bang! But first things first. Maybe the moderators can suggest if I should move this to the gunsmith forum. I just thought I had more or a draw from this crew as there are always numerous threads concerning the Glock Triggers. Anyway Happy New Year to all

[b1gcountry]

I just can't figure out what the coherence is with the two new/old definitions of pre travel. I thought the concept was pretty well defined, and well understood already.

Tom

[sigsauerfan]

easy.

pre -travel : i don't care about pre-travel. i prefer hitting the wall nearly on contact of my finger tip on the trigger pad .i like just a little play with little to none resistance and the shortest reset possible. a weight break of 2.some crumbs lbs is perfect LOLOL!!

''working '''' a glock trigger from the stock parts is a all about your interpretation of shapes and angles of the glock internals ; unless one uses some savant jigs and gauges who makes achieving the best trigger possible on each unit a breeze , bottom line is you sort out the file and dremmel and you try things who might go south, or at the opposite, very great.

Edited January 2, 2015 by sigsauerfan

[marky123]

1.place finger anywhere on trigger.

2.pull.

3.keep pulling.

3.

3.

3.

3.

3.

3.

3.

3.

3.

[BigBoss]

I just can't figure out what the coherence is with the two new/old definitions of pre travel. I thought the concept was pretty well defined, and well understood already.

Tom

I wrote both old and new. I just thought the new one was more exact. I talk triggers all day long and you would be quite surprised about how not "well defined and well understood" the majority of these terms are. It prompted me to put this on you tube so people could familiarize and understand the terms

[b1gcountry]

Well, it helps knowing who you are, and that you actually have the experience.

I just read both the old and new definitions, and came away thinking they were just different ways of saying the same thing. That may just be my lack of understanding of the finer points...

Tom

[BoyGlock]

Very informative thank you ?

[BigBoss]

Ok moving right along, remember please chime in with ANY constructive addendums,

PRE TRAVEL-WALL

next is CREEP or staging whatever you call it- it’s there to be dealt in or done away with.

Definition –this is the varying degree of reward and downward movement that the sear must travel in order to release the striker, congruently It is the nose or beak of the transfer bar traveling down the underside of the connector angle.

I feel this major characteristic that goes both ways. On one hand can be built right into the early rolling aspect of a wall-less poetic rolling break feel or must be reduced as much as safely possible to get the perfect quick crisp glass rod break feel.

Any takers?

[BoyGlock]

In all those trigger enhancements I assume all safeties still work and is reliable on a wide brands of primers. And the gun must be shipped to you?

Im sorry I cannot contribute much to your discussion. Im a technical person by profession so I understand and appreciate your works but I prefer to just shoot my glocks and leave the hardware enhancements to the pros like you. Im very impressed by trigger in the video. Havent personally tested any yet. I have experienced the Vanek's and read most of the trigger enhancements in the net but imo your work took an entirely different approach. By your video I can say its the only REAL trigger enhancements in the Glock world to date.

[Marshal82]

I'm also interested in this as tinkering with the glock trigger myself, I've found that it's a system that is more than the individual parts.

Wall - Break (release of striker)

The point between the sudden increase in pressure (wall) through the building pressure to the release of the striker. The building pressure can roll through or built and snap as mentioned above.

What i find here can be some creep, usually determined by the beak/nose of the trigger bar. What bothers me here is the pressure built from the flex in the system. IF you could truly design the trigger bar so that it wouldn't flex I think a better system could be built that is more consistent and not depended on the different tolerances outside the system. Some of the aftermarket trigger bars like Lone Wolf or Zev may do this, I have not personally tried them.

[BigBoss]

In all those trigger enhancements I assume all safeties still work and is reliable on a wide brands of primers. And the gun must be shipped to you?

Yes all safeties 100% engaged and functional and no outstanding remarkable feedback concerning primer ignition. In regards to your second question (and no offense) but with respect for the vendors I ask you or any other to please PM me about business let's keep this thread moving as educational.

What bothers me here is the pressure built from the flex in the system. IF you could truly design the trigger bar so that it wouldn't flex I think a better system could be built that is more consistent and not depended on the different tolerances outside the system.

This is what the M&P did with their trigger chassis system and now Sig has taken it further with the p320. This is some of what the bump on the bars vertical extension that engages the safety plunger helps with. It helps to have the bar contact the metal of the slide instead of outwardly bow flexing like the 1-3 gens. This is why the 1-3 gens sears kick up on the left side as I have mentioned before. The bump really didn't do too much of keeping it less flexed. It wasn't designed for that but it helps. It was designed for if you are a lefty and need to switch the mag catch you can do so with no drag issues. The pressure build up is definitely present and the mod you mentioned will resolve it to a point but then that will usually change the character of the reset.

Nice observations Marshall82 OH and ZEV and other company's that use Aluminum trigger shoes have less flex but that's just addressing the flex in the shoe/pad it self not the bar. I feel through experience most are more comfortable with the Glock OEM products because of the reliability of the gun in general. So I feel you would have to really make sure you had something totally unique in order to compete with that reputation. Robar had a metal frame at one time that you could really get unbelievably firm and solid with very little flex. KEEP IT COMMING!!!!!

Edited January 6, 2015 by BigBoss

[9x45]

Since this forum is dedicated to competition shooting, at the end of the day, will this research project lead to the next great Glock trigger by modifying OEM parts?

[BigBoss]

From my perspective this thread is about- first getting some coherent terms so we say what is meant and not assume. Then we can get opinions on what aspects are most important to us as competition shooters, a wish list if you will. From there we can approach it with OEM or completely redesign some things in order to address our wants and needs. At the end of the day we can all have a better understanding of our equipment and how it functions as well as a little or a lot of practical DYI information and possibly a trigger. For me this forum is about sharing ideas to spark creativity and helping each other so everyone becomes more skilled. I think most people don't even know that they could get so much more out of their Glocks. New found knowledge has a power to create a new world champion or a unique trigger. I'm not willing to limit the outcome of this thread because there are infinite possibilities.

[BoyGlock]

In all those trigger enhancements I assume all safeties still work and is reliable on a wide brands of primers. And the gun must be shipped to you?

.... and no outstanding remarkable feedback concerning primer ignition.

For my competition guns this is not enough. Reliability must be 100% or no go. Ive read lots of posts here and elsewhere and personally witnessed in ranges shooters claim of reliability w/ their new gizmos only to find out short of my expectations. To some a few magfull, or a hundred or so rounds w/o any misfires is good enough. Or else use soft Federal primers. Or excuses of high primers. That wont make it in my guns. I want my guns' trigger to shoot at least 500 rnds of MY loads w/o any issue to consider it for competition use.

In my observation ALL of those enhanced triggers before yours depend so much on lightened striker springs to attain light pulls. I dont know what you have in your triggers. But this is where the misfires usually come from.

So if I may have my say in your discussion, RELIABILITY (w/ non-Federal primers) must be the prime consideration.

[atbarr]

So if I may have my say in your discussion, RELIABILITY (w/ non-Federal primers) must be the prime consideration.

OK, dumb question. What is wrong using Federal primers?

[Marshal82]

This is what the M&P did with their trigger chassis system and now Sig has taken it further with the p320. This is some of what the bump on the bars vertical extension that engages the safety plunger helps with. It helps to have the bar contact the metal of the slide instead of outwardly bow flexing like the 1-3 gens. This is why the 1-3 gens sears kick up on the left side as I have mentioned before. The bump really didn't do too much of keeping it less flexed. It wasn't designed for that but it helps. It was designed for if you are a lefty and need to switch the mag catch you can do so with no drag issues. The pressure build up is definitely present and the mod you mentioned will resolve it to a point but then that will usually change the character of the reset.

Nice observations Marshall82 OH and ZEV and other company's that use Aluminum trigger shoes have less flex but that's just addressing the flex in the shoe/pad it self not the bar. I feel through experience most are more comfortable with the Glock OEM products because of the reliability of the gun in general. So I feel you would have to really make sure you had something totally unique in order to compete with that reputation. Robar had a metal frame at one time that you could really get unbelievably firm and solid with very little flex. KEEP IT COMMING!!!!!

I change all my Gen 3 guns to have the Gen 4 trigger bar because of the bump. The bump kept the bar from twisting and allowed it to track more linear. I still prefer the Glock simplicity over the other manufacturers, they have created a more robust trigger system but in doing so added other problems in the trigger system, which also takes up more room and creates a higher bore line.

The Zev and LW trigger bars with Aluminum shoes will remove the flex from the trigger shoe tilting side to side on the trigger pin but I'd like to remove flex on the actual bar. I don't know if there is room but even a gusset or brace fixed in the corners of the trigger bar could help a lot. The factory bar tries to do this with the stamp mark down the log side to keep it stiffer. I think even with the Aluminum shoe the other companies use a factory trigger bar. I think the most flex comes at the cruciform area where you have the most pressure from the striker and a farther distance from the pull point. This torque creates flex and causes the striker and sear/cruciform to wear uneven, usually to the right side. I think a little extra metal in some key areas could help but creating the molds and stamps to create a new trigger bar is costly I'm sure.

I'm interested in this because I've studied the Glock trigger quite a bit and have a drawer full of trigger bars as experiment fails. I have found though in competition it really doesn't matter a whole lot. A clean Glock trigger that is consistent, once learned, is just as competitive. In a competition setting I rarely notice if my trigger has a little extra pre-travel or a little creep because I'm focused on the target and the sights. I do want a consistent trigger and one that I can replicate because I do learn the trigger in practice through lots of dry fire.

[RangerTrace]

In all those trigger enhancements I assume all safeties still work and is reliable on a wide brands of primers. And the gun must be shipped to you?

.... and no outstanding remarkable feedback concerning primer ignition.

For my competition guns this is not enough. Reliability must be 100% or no go. Ive read lots of posts here and elsewhere and personally witnessed in ranges shooters claim of reliability w/ their new gizmos only to find out short of my expectations. To some a few magfull, or a hundred or so rounds w/o any misfires is good enough. Or else use soft Federal primers. Or excuses of high primers. That wont make it in my guns. I want my guns' trigger to shoot at least 500 rnds of MY loads w/o any issue to consider it for competition use.

In my observation ALL of those enhanced triggers before yours depend so much on lightened striker springs to attain light pulls. I dont know what you have in your triggers. But this is where the misfires usually come from.

So if I may have my say in your discussion, RELIABILITY (w/ non-Federal primers) must be the prime consideration.

The extended striker seems to make up for the lighter spring. At least that is my experience with my ZEV Ultimate trigger.....

[RangerTrace]

This is what the M&P did with their trigger chassis system and now Sig has taken it further with the p320. This is some of what the bump on the bars vertical extension that engages the safety plunger helps with. It helps to have the bar contact the metal of the slide instead of outwardly bow flexing like the 1-3 gens. This is why the 1-3 gens sears kick up on the left side as I have mentioned before. The bump really didn't do too much of keeping it less flexed. It wasn't designed for that but it helps. It was designed for if you are a lefty and need to switch the mag catch you can do so with no drag issues. The pressure build up is definitely present and the mod you mentioned will resolve it to a point but then that will usually change the character of the reset.

Nice observations Marshall82 OH and ZEV and other company's that use Aluminum trigger shoes have less flex but that's just addressing the flex in the shoe/pad it self not the bar. I feel through experience most are more comfortable with the Glock OEM products because of the reliability of the gun in general. So I feel you would have to really make sure you had something totally unique in order to compete with that reputation. Robar had a metal frame at one time that you could really get unbelievably firm and solid with very little flex. KEEP IT COMMING!!!!!

I change all my Gen 3 guns to have the Gen 4 trigger bar because of the bump. The bump kept the bar from twisting and allowed it to track more linear. I still prefer the Glock simplicity over the other manufacturers, they have created a more robust trigger system but in doing so added other problems in the trigger system, which also takes up more room and creates a higher bore line.

The Zev and LW trigger bars with Aluminum shoes will remove the flex from the trigger shoe tilting side to side on the trigger pin but I'd like to remove flex on the actual bar. I don't know if there is room but even a gusset or brace fixed in the corners of the trigger bar could help a lot. The factory bar tries to do this with the stamp mark down the log side to keep it stiffer. I think even with the Aluminum shoe the other companies use a factory trigger bar. I think the most flex comes at the cruciform area where you have the most pressure from the striker and a farther distance from the pull point. This torque creates flex and causes the striker and sear/cruciform to wear uneven, usually to the right side. I think a little extra metal in some key areas could help but creating the molds and stamps to create a new trigger bar is costly I'm sure.

I'm interested in this because I've studied the Glock trigger quite a bit and have a drawer full of trigger bars as experiment fails. I have found though in competition it really doesn't matter a whole lot. A clean Glock trigger that is consistent, once learned, is just as competitive. In a competition setting I rarely notice if my trigger has a little extra pre-travel or a little creep because I'm focused on the target and the sights. I do want a consistent trigger and one that I can replicate because I do learn the trigger in practice through lots of dry fire.

This is what I've been told by some very good, high classed Glock shooters. For me though, maybe because I've spent so much time behind 1.5# Infinity triggers, I prefer a smooth, light, Glock trigger....

[BigBoss]

and no outstanding remarkable feedback concerning primer ignition.

Boy Glock I think you may have misinterpreted my statement. Let me phrase it this way no one has ever made the remark that my triggers are causing them to HAVE light strikes. In other words you will NOT get light strikes with my trigger systems even with the 4# striker spring . I used the words "nothing remarkable" in the same way a physician would state "I found nothing remarkable when I ran your blood tests" meaning that I have no reason to make the remark that I don't get 100% primer ignition. Now do you understand? Sorry sometimes words have different meanings and that's why we're defining our trigger terms first. I know I said I was not going to talk business on this thread however I just had to clear that one up for all to see. Whew!!! the last AKA I'm looking for is Johnny Light Strike. Talk about dodging bullets- Boy Glock I know where your from so I'll give you a break wink wink