New SCSA Classification System

[jdphotoguy]

Thanks for the update Zach

[ZackJones]

More Updates for those of you that don't read the USPSA forums.

From Rob Boudrie:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

There were extensive changed made to the USPSA classification system to support a new web based classification system (when complete, there will be no need for a monthly run by HQ and the classifications will operate in a much more automated manner). These changes have been complete, and work is underway on the new USPSA (not Steel Cahllenge) classification system.

There have not been any changes made to the Steel Challenge classification system. The SC database was designed from "day 1" to be a web based classificaiton, so any changes required for an updated classification system will probably be minor. I have not received any directions regarding the SC classification system from high command, and I don't think the in-house webmaster has either.

Then a follow up from Bruce Gary

Ah, thanks Rob. All I have is my notes from the September-2014 Board meeting, where we passed the SC classification policy, but noted that it would not go into effect until the database had been revised.

Edited to add: from the 12/2014 phone meeting, "The new SCSA Classification system listed below will be incorporated into USPSA’s new database and reporting system and made effective January 1, 2016"

I don't know whether 1/1/2016 is still a real date or will be moved.

So who knows.

[Nimitz]

I have never believed 1 Jan 16 was ever a remotely real date .... However, what I continually find disturbing (and completely unacceptable) is just how few of the leadership know a new SC classification system was approved and supposed to be incorporated ... Whatever the date for incorporation ends up being....

Is Mike the new president yet .... ?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nimitz

[scottlep]

Probably because only a few of them give a crap.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ZackJones]

I actually feel sorry for Mike. He's inheriting such a mess!

[Nimitz]

I don't .... Real leaders fix problems and don't get bogged down by people who are not hacking it. There are plenty of ways for effectively dealing with those types of things ... I don't know Mike personally but listening to him talk he certainly appears to be a leader, which means he WILL fix things ....

Of course if he doesn't win I'll probably just go join IDPA or take up skeet again or maybe just sell evything and get back into offshore billfish tournaments ....

Edited December 2, 2015 by Nimitz

[danjordan78]

No you won't. This stuff is too much fun regardless of how jacked up headquarters is:) Especially steel!

[Bigpops]

I was just made aware of this thread, thanks Scott. I don't make it a practice to hop around and address all of the forums and discussions - I have a job too.

I sent a few emails and hopefully can answer your questions soon. I honestly do not have an answer on what is taking place. We approved it but as a BOD member I do not implement s/w changes.

Thanks for the support!

Steve

(Area 8)

[scottlep]

Thanks for chiming in Steve. I/We appreciate all you do for Area 8 and are glad to know that you know what is going on and are always willing to help USPSA and Area 8. Plus you and Cindi are fun to shoot with!

[Bigpops]

Thanks Scott - though I am fuzzy on this one!

And....while on the topic. I see many comments concerning the BOD and a new Prez fixing things. I urge all of you to step up. As a matter of fact Area 8 needs a new AD as of next year. Now is your chance to show us how it is done.

Steve

[gmshtr]

Hello all, and sorry for not posting this sooner.

The new SCSA Classification was written by me years ago when I was the Area 4 director, but was rejected by some BOD members (of past) and the former Executive Director. The ED and other BOD members had devised the original classification system of taking a person's best score per stage at the Steel Challenge, then combining them all to form a classification score.

It was my opinion that this was unrealistic, as many people (with the exception of a few) would obtain GM or top classifications then not be able to perform up to them. My classification time was WAY lower than I had ever gotten close to in any competition!

Taking a page out of the IDPA playbook, I wanted to come up with something that could allow a Steel Challenge competitor to get classified in one match...even a club level one. After becoming President, I re-pitched the idea. Bruce Gary helped me change things to a percentage based system to better align with our standard USPSA Classification, and BAM...there ya go. The new classification system was born.

As far as administration of that system, USPSA HQ is working diligently on incorporating it into the new database...among MANY other tasks. Without the technical knowledge of website building, I can't comment as to how it plans to be administrated, but I've suggested monthly updates to pull a competitor's best performance at a SCSA Affiliated event. The four-stage stipulation was aimed our USPSA clubs who may not have the ability to host six or more like many others can.

I REALLY hope it is tested and operational a few months before the Steel Challenge next year (August 25-27, BTW). It would be nice to incorporate them into the match and see some earlier visits for the Class winners to the prize table.

As far as the Carry Optics questions, that was added to this year's Steel Challenge as a provisional division shortly after it was approved. I was hoping for more interest, but in the end, only Shane Coley signed up. I changed my entry from Open to Carry Optics so he would at least have someone to shoot against and wouldn't take an empty title. I practiced with his G34 with Trijicon optic, but ended up borrowing a stock FNS to shoot in the main event. I never expected to win...only to give a pro competitor a little competition. (so no, I wasn't padding my resume).

Anyway, I digress. I know that Kim, Rick, Roger, and everyone at HQ is working overtime to ensure that our new facelift is seamless, fully operational, and without major bugs....just in time for the new President!!! GEEZ! The BOD will also be reviewing the new website/database before release.

Thanks to everyone for their patience...I'm confident you won't be disappointed.

Phil Strader

Edited December 3, 2015 by gmshtr

[ZackJones]

As far as administration of that system, USPSA HQ is working diligently on incorporating it into the new database...among MANY other tasks. Without the technical knowledge of website building, I can't comment as to how it plans to be administrated, but I've suggested monthly updates to pull a competitor's best performance at a SCSA Affiliated event. The four-stage stipulation was aimed our USPSA clubs who may not have the ability to host six or more like many others can.

As far as the Carry Optics questions, that was added to this year's Steel Challenge as a provisional division shortly after it was approved. I was hoping for more interest, but in the end, only Shane Coley signed up. I changed my entry from Open to Carry Optics so he would at least have someone to shoot against and wouldn't take an empty title. I practiced with his G34 with Trijicon optic, but ended up borrowing a stock FNS to shoot in the main event. I never expected to win...only to give a pro competitor a little competition. (so no, I wasn't padding my resume).

- There are several questions many of us have regarding the new classification system. Who would be the best person to address them?

- Have Peak stage times for CO division been determined yet?

- FWIW, our current classification system for steel challenge is updated daily.

- Regarding CO where was it announced that it's a provisional division for steel challenge? Can we shoot it at our clubs now? (Ironically I just asked this same question on the USPSA forum before coming to Enos).

[Nimitz]

it sounds like I've been laboring under a false assumption WRT the new classification system .... i was under the assumption that your best score for each stage would be used (4, 6 or all 8) and then that score would be compared to the standarad using the peak stage time methodology outlined to determine your classification and as you shot a new best time it would replace your curret best time and thus your classifiation would get updated ....like is done now for the centerfire division

but if I am interpreting Phil's post corrcetly the new SC classification system will be based on your match score & not individual aggarate stage times? Am I reading that correctly?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Nimitz

[gmshtr]

CO was a sign-up option under centerfire divisions for the Steel Challenge. The division is brand new, but still a provisional division...and yes, you can compete at your local club matches in Carry Optics. The BOD will evaluate the division and it's participation and determine its future. It's a bit of a catch 22...no one wants to buy the equipment and compete if there's a chance (albeit very remote) that the BOD could change or outright remove the division.

As of November 10th, there were 211 CO Classifier scores turned in, so I would be very surprised if the BOD removed it. And no, there isn't a CO peak time for the stages assigned yet. I could probably make a pretty educated guess as to what they would be, but I would prefer to actually base it on statistics. They'll yield the same result, but it doesn't give the famous 50 complainers any extra ammo. As we get more CO scores from affiliated steel matches, it shouldn't be difficult to figure out...expect them to be on par with the Limited peak times maybe a bit higher.

The old SCSA Classification system calculated a shooter's best stage scores and combined them, then assigned a classification. This creates a score that is unobtainable and not accurate. PLUS it doesn't give us a lot of room to compare scores, as Max, KC, and BJ would have 8-stage times in the 60 second range. Additionally, the classifications weren't being used. The new system compares a shooter's real performance against the average performance of the top 10 Steel Challenge scores over the course of several years. It's just more accurate, and it doesn't take a collection of God runs and give an inaccurate or unrealistic classification.

Will there be some Grandbaggers...probably, but shooters will be forced to stay consistent though the entire match rather than go for it on the stage they're weak on. Sandbagging will also be reduced, as most competitors won't trash an entire match just to keep their scores down...that would lead to poor results (and bad shooting habits that would carry over into the larger events).

I don't think the system is absolutely perfect, but if implemented correctly, it will definitely give us an accurate assessment of one's ability. (Just something else for the new President to get credit for!)

[Beastly]

Famous 50 complainers = 50 engaged USPSA members who care and are outspoken?

Their feedback should be dismissed outright, or at least marginalized. Bravo.

[zhunter]

Famous 50 complainers = 50 engaged USPSA members who care and are outspoken?

Their feedback should be dismissed outright, or at least marginalized. Bravo.

Bingo!!!!

[zhunter]

So, I shot a SC match a couple of weeks ago using my CO gear, registered as CO... But my MD is not able to upload my CO scores.

Thoughts?

How can our esteemed leader shoot CO in a World Shoot and I can't shoot it and have my scores posted in a Local match?

And Yes, I'm one of the 50! And proudly so! Because I care!!!!

[ZackJones]

CO was a sign-up option under centerfire divisions for the Steel Challenge.

When did the BoD approve this provisional division for steel challenge? I can't find mention of it in any minutes. If the BoD did not approve it for steel challenge then technically you were shooting as a WildCat division which isn't authorized above tier 2 matches.

The division is brand new, but still a provisional division...and yes, you can compete at your local club matches in Carry Optics.

Based on what? "Because Phil said so on Enos." Please post a link to the BoD minutes authorizing CO in steel challenge.

As of November 10th, there were 211 CO Classifier scores turned in, so I would be very surprised if the BOD removed it.

For steel challenge? That's interesting. I would love to know which clubs are actively shooting CO in steel challenge.

Edited December 4, 2015 by ZackJones

[Nimitz]

CO was a sign-up option under centerfire divisions for the Steel Challenge. The division is brand new, but still a provisional division...and yes, you can compete at your local club matches in Carry Optics. The BOD will evaluate the division and it's participation and determine its future. It's a bit of a catch 22...no one wants to buy the equipment and compete if there's a chance (albeit very remote) that the BOD could change or outright remove the division.

As of November 10th, there were 211 CO Classifier scores turned in, so I would be very surprised if the BOD removed it. And no, there isn't a CO peak time for the stages assigned yet. I could probably make a pretty educated guess as to what they would be, but I would prefer to actually base it on statistics. They'll yield the same result, but it doesn't give the famous 50 complainers any extra ammo. As we get more CO scores from affiliated steel matches, it shouldn't be difficult to figure out...expect them to be on par with the Limited peak times maybe a bit higher.

The old SCSA Classification system calculated a shooter's best stage scores and combined them, then assigned a classification. This creates a score that is unobtainable and not accurate. PLUS it doesn't give us a lot of room to compare scores, as Max, KC, and BJ would have 8-stage times in the 60 second range. Additionally, the classifications weren't being used. The new system compares a shooter's real performance against the average performance of the top 10 Steel Challenge scores over the course of several years. It's just more accurate, and it doesn't take a collection of God runs and give an inaccurate or unrealistic classification.

Will there be some Grandbaggers...probably, but shooters will be forced to stay consistent though the entire match rather than go for it on the stage they're weak on. Sandbagging will also be reduced, as most competitors won't trash an entire match just to keep their scores down...that would lead to poor results (and bad shooting habits that would carry over into the larger events).

I don't think the system is absolutely perfect, but if implemented correctly, it will definitely give us an accurate assessment of one's ability. (Just something else for the new President to get credit for!)

so if the new SC classification system going to be based on your total score at a match and NOT use all 8 stages, which stages will be used for classification purposes and how does that accuractely reflect a shooter's ability if some stages are not used? all the stages are not equal in their difficulty ... and i don't think the current peak times accuractly account for this .... it is easier to make say A class scores on some stages than others Edited December 4, 2015 by Nimitz

[Racinready300ex]

So you must shoot 4 stages in one match? My local club only shoots one of the 8 stages per match. The rest of them they make up as they go to keep things interesting. So local's will never get classified at this match if I'm understanding correctly.

[Nimitz]

that's the way I would read it if the new system is match-based and they define a certain number and/or specific stages. is your local club currently running a sanctioned match with only using one of the official stages?

[Gooldylocks]

that's the way I would read it if the new system is match-based and they define a certain number and/or specific stages. is your local club currently running a sanctioned match with only using one of the official stages?

Can't speak for him, but that's what we do at my club.

[Nimitz]

wow, so even under the current centerfire classification system it would take someone at least 6 months (assuming once/month match) at your club to get classified...

that's one of the rules I think needs to be changed .... only allowing a minimum of one official stage out of say 6 or more and the rest madeup is not a Steel Challenge match. Probably still fun, just not Steel Challenge.

This would be similar to allowing one or more stages in a USPSA match to not follow the stage design rules but still allow it to be a sanctioned USPSA match ... something no one at HQ I assume would ever entertain ...

[ZackJones]

Actually it takes one but as you've previously stated it's not a legit classification. Under our current rule set we are not required to run any official stages at tier 1 match and we can still call it a steel challenge match sanctioned by USPSA.

[Gooldylocks]

Actually it takes one but as you've previously stated it's not a legit classification. Under our current rule set we are not required to run any official stages at tier 1 match and we can still call it a steel challenge match sanctioned by USPSA.

+1

I think that only having one stage per match being from the original 8 is still steel challenge. They are most like the classifier at a uspsa match. However, I think that something would have to change so it doesn't take 6 months to get classified. That is simply too long. Maybe those clubs need to run "Classifier Matches" that are 6 of the original stages once a year or something. I don't know.