Bob Hostetter Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Question for all of you rules guru's out there... Sanctioned match, say a state championship. Stages were submitted to the AC and/or HQ for approval and were in fact approved. At the actual match a stage is discovered to not be in compliance with IDPA rules (common example would more then 15 yards of movement). MD is advised and requested to either bring into compliance or throw out the stage. MD declines stating it was approved and that's all he needs. Should AC and/or HQ be advised and if so, to provide what remedy? Edited November 7, 2014 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Question for all of you rules guru's out there... Sanctioned match, say a state championship. Stages were submitted to the AC and/or HQ for approval and were in fact approved. At the actual match a stage is discovered to not be in compliance with IDPA rules (common example would more then 15 yards of movement). MD is advised and requested to either bring into compliance or throw out the stage. MD declines stating it was approved and that's all he needs. Should AC and/or HQ be advised and if so, to provide what remedy? If it's the AC telling the MD to fix the stage or toss it, then he needs to do it. Approval on paper is good, but sometimes things get changed when the actual stage is setup physically.The MD should know the rules. If the stage is set-up out of compliance with the rules, he should want to fix it. Edited November 7, 2014 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Hard to say what the best course of action is, and what should be done, it also depends on how egregious the violation is (For example, was the total distance 17 yards instead of 15?) .. ... In my experience, just about every big match I have ever shot had at least one stage that ended up being "illegal" due to some oversight.. If the AC is present and he/she makes the MD aware of the problem, it should be addressed.. The best course of action may be to just leave the stage how it is. All we can do is be open minded, listen to the shooters and do our best to ensure it doesn't happen again.. Edited November 7, 2014 by Sac Law Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 If it matters enough to you, lay your 100 bucks down if you've spoken to the CSO and MD, and the AC doesn't already know. If there is no appeals process in place at the match, definitely contact the AC. Kind of a tangent, but: I proposed a rule change that would require the AC or their designee to either unilaterally toss the stage in the event of an appeal or recuse themselves from the appeals process should the legality of the stage, as set up, be challenged. The AC has a conflict of interest if he was already involved in the approval of the stage. If he's not willing to toss it unilaterally due to it not being set up as submitted and approved, he shouldn't be on the committee. Hopefully this makes it in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) So BillR1 says we should inform the AC and if 'he' agrees the MD should toss the stage. If the AC is not available then we should just live with it. Kinda of saying if the rules aren't followed we just have to understand that sometimes it's ok to not follow the rules. At least for a club. But not for a competitor. Sac Law tells us that if the AC is present and "he" complains then the MD should address the issue. However, since clubs not following the rules appears to be common place, we should probably just ignore it and continue to accept it. We should really try to be open minded rather then expect the hosting club to follow the rules during the match as much as the club will expect the competitors to follow the rules. We should listen to the shooters ... unless o'course they are pointing out a rules violation. Afoulk suggests after taking to the MD and being told no changes are forth coming that we pay a $100 protest fee to the same person, so that they realize we are really serious. We could still contact the AC but if they aren't at the match then they aren't in a position to do anything about it until after the match is over and IDPA history tells us that won't happen Am I the only one who thinks that clubs, at least while hosting a sanctioned match, should be held to the rules just like the shooters? Edited November 7, 2014 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Yep, whip out your $100. I've been at two idpa matches this year when that happened. Protest was upheld and the stages were tossed in both cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) So as competitors we have to pay an entry fee for the right to pay an additional $100 to have the club comply with the rules they advertised they were in compliance with? Plus I have seen matches where the same people reviewed the protest that declined to correct the matter in the first place. SO you were just donating money to the after match staff beer fund. But again, why do we have to do any of this? Why do hosting clubs think they can ignore the rules for setting up the stages. I would think that if anyone pointed out an illegal stage in a sanctioned match the staff would be all over fixing it or removing it to ensure the quality of their match. And more to the point of my original question, if a hosting club presents an illegal stage during a sanctioned match and doesn't take the responsibility to either fix it or remove it, what should the AC/HQ do about it? If nothing is done that is passive agreement that they don't have to comply in the future. Do they decertify the match costing all the competitors their points for the Nationals? What's the answer? Edited November 7, 2014 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The MD should know the rules. If the stage is set-up out of compliance with the rules, he should want to fix it. I also said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 << I also said >> I didn't mean to leave that part of your statement out but it didn't responded to my original question. I completely agree that the MD should want to fix it. But what if he doesn't is what I am asking? Your response implies that only the AC has the power to direct the MD to bring a stage into compliance. But what if your AC rarely attends matches, actually competes in them even more rarely, and normally responses to telephone calls within a 'few' days, after the match would be competed? Thank you for the clarification but it would be more helpful if it addressed the question presented, "what remedy if the stage is out of compliance and after notification remains out of compliance and included in the match?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 So BillR1 says we should inform the AC and if 'he' agrees the MD should toss the stage. If the AC is not available then we should just live with it. Kinda of saying if the rules aren't followed we just have to understand that sometimes it's ok to not follow the rules. At least for a club. But not for a competitor. Sac Law tells us that if the AC is present and "he" complains then the MD should address the issue. However, since clubs not following the rules appears to be common place, we should probably just ignore it and continue to accept it. We should really try to be open minded rather then expect the hosting club to follow the rules during the match as much as the club will expect the competitors to follow the rules. We should listen to the shooters ... unless o'course they are pointing out a rules violation. Afoulk suggests after taking to the MD and being told no changes are forth coming that we pay a $100 protest fee to the same person, so that they realize we are really serious. We could still contact the AC but if they aren't at the match then they aren't in a position to do anything about it until after the match is over and IDPA history tells us that won't happen Am I the only one who thinks that clubs, at least while hosting a sanctioned match, should be held to the rules just like the shooters? Great (and entertaining) summary! Thanks. You're not the only one who believes that matches declared as "IPDA" should be (need to be) in compliance with IDPA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 If the MD knows about the illegal stage and refuses to do anything about it, I'm not sure what else can be done other than the mentioned $100 appeal. Is this situation at all common on a larger sanctioned match? I've never experienced this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) OK... tar & feather me again. But.... if the stage is 'technically illegal' under IDPA rules, and by that I mean maybe more than the allowed non-threats, or weak/strong hand shooting slightly beyond RB allowed ranges, or maybe 18 yards of movement instead of the RB-mandated maximum.... but not so egregiously illegal as to make shooters do impossible things - then why not just shoot it? If every competitor shoots the same stage are we not in a pistol match? Are we not awarding shooting skill? Are some competitors so locked into the "Engage T1 - T3 from P1, move to P2 and engage T-4 - T-6" that they can only function within strict IDPA guidelines. Whatever happened to seeing which shooter could deal with the presented targets in the fastest & most accurate manner? It's a pistol match, for God's sake! Shoot the targets as you see them. Let the best shooter win. If a "Range Lawyer' has a bad stage and later finds out that there was actually 17 yards of movement!!! Should he be allowed to screw up the match... and void all the hard work of the 'volunteers' who are the ones that actually make Berryville's payday... or screw all the other shooters who just shot the targets as they saw them? At what point does the term "competitive pistol match"... and let the shooter who does the best win.,.. enter the equation? If the stages may be a touch outside regulations, but within reason... why not just spend your time shooting them well instead of bitching about them? BTW... there have been :technically illegal stages at the S&W Nationals, the 2011 World Championship, and a number of other sanctioned matches. It's not anything new. Edited November 7, 2014 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 IMO, people should know what to expect (as far as rules) when they come to an IDPA match, particularly a larger sanctioned match. Letting some rules slide is what leads to the "tribalism" everyone is so critical of. When/if an illegal stage is brought to the attention of the MD, he has the duty and responsibility to correct them. This usually isn't a big deal at a local match when little or nothing is on the line. But at a sanctioned match when people are accruing points for Nationals and such, the stages (and the MD!) need to abide by the rules. We have had MDs in this area that were a little lax in this regard. Our AC..."corrected the issue" right away. I'm certainly not saying that mistakes don't happen even in the larger matches. But (IMO) there's no excuse for an MD knowingly allowing an illegal stage to be run at a sanctioned match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 ...If the stages may be a touch outside regulations, but within reason... why not just spend your time shooting them well instead of bitching about them? BTW... there have been :technically illegal stages at the S&W Nationals, the 2011 World Championship, and a number of other sanctioned matches. It's not anything new. "... a touch outside regulations, but within reason..." "A touch outside regulations" is vague and unenforceable, and "within reason" can vary greatly from person to person (what one person considers reasonable can be quite different from what another person considers reasonable) - it's an invitation to argument and dissatisfaction. As much difficulty as there has been with understanding/interpreting some IDPA regulations/rules, it's much easier to achieve consensus on the written regulations/rules (at least the vast majority of them). The "technically illegal stages at the S&W Nationals, the 2011 World Championship, and a number of other sanctioned matches" that you mention have been the subject of much discussion and criticism - and the reason many competitors choose not to go to (or return to) such matches. Respectfully, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 GOF, No tar and feathers from me. I think your post points out the need for the $100 appeal fee. It keeps people from wasting time on small stuff. MD's also need to know if they put a technically illegal stage on the ground, it could get tossed by a shooter appeal. I think it's actually a decent check to ensure "by the book" stages. Personally, I wouldn't talk to the AC unless I had been denied access to an appeals process and been willing to lay my $100 down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Both times I saw it happen it was either a match director from a different match or a different area's AC. Both matches had enough stages to still be the tier they advertised after the one was dropped. (in one match it was one where i was close to the overall stage winner and it cost me a win and match bump so i wasnt very happy) When it was presented by people of that level, it was very hard for the match director to just say screw it or like it or leave it kind of thing. As just a regular joe shooter, not sure how your protest would be received. I brought up that a stage was illegal at the CC and talked to a SO about it and they told me to get over it and if i did say something nothign would be done about it. Like Bob, I find it really irritating to go to sanctioned matches and see vagaries, tribalism and disregard for rules. The appeals process is in place but I'm not sure it works beyond intimidating those who would protest into losing $100 bucks. 'Cause who gets to judge the protest? Oh wait, the person who you're complaining to who probably had a hand in making the mistake. What are the chances of that conflict being resolved fairly? I say slim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 ac...you missed my point. If the stages are within reason, even though they may be not technically legal... do you shoot them and move on... or do you bring the match to a stop? Are shooters there to compete, or to whine? Can one engage targets and run a COF... even if it is not technically an IDPA Rule Book legal stage? If the only game one shoots is IDPA I could see how a Range Lawyer that did badly on the stage might... for their own personal aggrandizement ... start complaining loudly, while ignoring the fact that all the other shooters shot it to the best of their ability and are not complaining. I often wonder if people like this came to shoot a pistol match, or to litigate? Those competitors who have enjoyed other handgun games (like USPSA, ICORE, Steel Challenge, etc.) are not likely to be discombobulated by target arrays falling outside the narrow parameters of the IDPA Rule Book. They have developed the skills to let them deal with a variety of targets. Why not encourage shooters to develop their shooting schools, rather than exercise their Law Degree? I'm only speaking of COF design here. Obviously, rulings not in compliance with the RB regarding use of cover, reloading, target priority, yadda yadda... need be enforced. I'm only speaking of COFs that don't fit exactly into the RB.... too many NTs, too much movement, etc. Big Boys can handle that. It's the Little Boy whiners that mess things up for every other competitor in the match... and only to try to address their own shooting skill shortcomings. Respectfully GOF A23489 SSP/MA SSR/CDP/ESP/EX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Because just as you have already stated, there have been illegal stages before at National level. And because of that, people will continue to use the excuse of "well, they did it at nationals!". It's a lame excuse for being lazy. Not that these unpaid MDs are lazy, but it is lazy to have an illegal stage pointed out and not do anything about it. Normally it requires a bit of repositioning of the targets to bring it in line with the rulebook. You're right though, what harm would it do to the competitors of the stage were just a wee bit illegal? No harm at all for the competitors, but it then reinforces the idea to other match directors that it is ok to continue the practice of conducting matches with illegal stages. That's where the harm is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 If the CoFs and the MD are following the letter of the rule book, then there are no issues or discussions about the stage's legality. That seems like a much simpler and smoother way for a match to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 If a "Range Lawyer' has a bad stage and later finds out that there was actually 17 yards of movement!!! Should he be allowed to screw up the match... and void all the hard work of the 'volunteers' who are the ones that actually make Berryville's payday... or screw all the other shooters who just shot the targets as they saw them? That's interesting---making the shooter who is correct and wanting to follow the rules be at fault for "screwing up the match." Interesting. And here I thought that the people who set up and ran the illegal stage were at fault. So you are saying that if someone causes a stage to be thrown out, it is THEIR fault? What an odd way of looking at things. Matter of fact, I find that to not only be ridiculous, but actually something that contributes to why IDPA continually gets criticized by shooters. Maybe, just maybe, people could set up stages correctly, and this wouldn't be an issue. (Granted, IDPA has a lot of stage requirements, but nonetheless since they have a checklist it isn't that hard to make sure the stages are legal.) After all, if I go to an IDPA match, I'd expect to see IDPA stages. Similarly, if I went to a Steel Challenge, USPSA, PPC, or Trap shoot, I'd expect to see stages within the rules for those disciplines. Or do you think that the "IDPA Rules" are actually just relaxed guidelines for potential match ideas? I'm curious, really---because again, isn't one of the things that IDPA is most criticized for its inability to get clubs to actually follow the rules, instead subjectively having "local rules" that make it significantly different from place to place? Perhaps fixing that could start with MDs following the rules in the first place, and then having their SOs follow the rules, too. Or is that too much to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 So .... , GOF tells us that 1st of all if little rules violations bother us we will forever be known as 'Little boys" implying that over time, if we are lucky we may have the chance to develop into 'Big Boys". Since I have been told many times that its the "Big Boys" that always win the matches and get the pretty girls I want to be a big boy too. Maybe I should delete this thread, it might make me a bigger boy and make my girlfriend prettier. He also tells us that as long as its only a "Little" illegal, its ok. I am ok with that as long as the MD is ok with my gun and cleats being only a "Little" illegal. I mean, I will keep it reasonable. Besides there have been illegal stages before that were allowed to stand and I am sure there have been illegal guns used before, so ...? Afoulk tells us that we should only expect rules compliance from the hosting clubs if we have an extra $100 hanging out in our pockets. So people shooting on a really tight budget should just get used to being happy with whatever the MD wants to throw at them because if you cant afford to step up you need to shut up. I just think we should have the right to expect the people who are enforcing the rules to 1st and foremost follow the rules. Maybe the original question of what the remedy should be for non-compliance by the hosting club should be changed to, "It's only IDPA so why worry about following the rules at all as long as we only break them a little?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) The Real World and the dreamed about "Perfect World" can be miles apart when a tired and harried bunch of volunteers finally get the 8-16 stages finally set up for the match... and then get to quickly shoot them.... just before the rest of the competitors arrive. If you want perfection... pay professionals to achieve it and give them that goal only. Let them worry about setting up stages to "perfection". Don't make a bunch of unpaid volunteers set everything up, then grab their gear and try to shoot it to the best of their ability, knowing that for the next two days they'll be running a bunch of shooters through those stages and have to listen to the incessant whining of a small percentage of the "Little Boy" shooters about how it's not a "Perfect World".... along with every other PE they received. Kinda makes ya wonder why anyone wants to be a AC,MD, CSO or SO. Maybe what we should do is publically FIRE every AC, MD and CSO who allows even the smallest deviation from the Rules in a COF. Repeat infractions should result in the de-certification and public banishment of those clubs and their new MDs and CSOs who commit such nefarious doings. Vindication shall be yours! Right has won! Now... go find a place to shoot your shiny toys Edited November 7, 2014 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The Real World and the dreamed about "Perfect World" can be miles apart when a tired and harried bunch of volunteers finally get the 8-16 stages finally set up for the match... and then get to shoot them.... just before the rest of the competitors arrive. If you want perfection... pay professionals to achieve it and give them that goal only. Let them worry about setting up stage stages. Don't make a bunch of unpaid volunteers set everything up, then grab their gear and try to shoot it to the best of their ability, knowing that for the next two days they be running a bunch of shooters through those stages and listen to a small percentage of them whine about how it's not a "Perfect World".... along with every other PE they received. Kinda makes ya wonder why anyone wants to be a AC,MD, CSO or SO. You know, I've been setup staff and match staff for state-level and regional-level action pistol matches for the last 5 years. 9 or 10 major matches. And you know what? We set them up every time according to the rules. (Actually, one was not, in a manner that we didn't know, and it got thrown out of a regional match, which it should have. And you know what? Not only did we not complain, we turned it into a side match all of its own for those who wanted to shoot it for fun anyway.) So----no, I have no sympathy for those poor, tired volunteers who use that for an excuse to not build and run proper stages. I have sympathy for their work and their tiredness---but not the rest of it. If you* are going to work a match, perhaps you should be good enough to do it right. If you can't (at a major match, especially), perhaps you should pass the timer and the stage design over to someone who is going to do it right, so that the shooters can actually shoot a good match. According to the rules. *Collective you, not individual targeted you. This is the real world. Do it right. Because tons of people do it right every year, and being tired and "harried" isn't an excuse for not caring enough to do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Maybe what we should do is publically FIRE every AC, MD and CSO who allows even the smallest deviation from the Rules in a COF. Repeat infractions should result in the de-certification and public banishment of those clubs who commit such nefarious doings. Now... go find a place to shoot your shiny toys Yes, because over-reaction is the way to go. (How many times are you going to edit your post? I can't keep up!) "Hey look, before anyone shoots this, the targets are two yards too far away. Let's move them." Well now, there was an easy fix. If it is a minor issue, then it is a minor fix. If it is a major error, then the MD apparently doesn't care about following the rules, and then you have a problem that will be detrimental to the sport. So indeed, said MD should be talked to about whether or not they are going to be holding IDPA matches at their club, or random local rules stuff that simply annoys IDPA members who want to shoot IDPA matches. I'm thinking that ignoring the problem isn't going to help. And excusing the problem isn't going to help either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 So... Bob Hostetter says,"How hard can I troll these fools who actually think I was looking for a serious answer to a question?" Ya got me. I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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