How strict and "tough" are you with "gamers" when ROin

[MarkCO]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

It's not that simple at all matches.

In some cases getting the RM to the stage is going to take considerable time. No problem with if that's the only way to resolve the issue but if there is another more expeditious way to deal with the issue while still being legal/fair then it needs to be considered. A great deal will depend on the communications skills of the RSO in this case. In some cases certain RSOs will only have the option of calling the RM.

For me it is. As soon as the shooter becomes "verbally combative" it's time to get someone else involved.

It might be simple for you to reach that decision to summon the RM, but it's not always so simple to get a RM to a specific stage.

It is if you have a good RM.

[cnote]

Yes it is, there should at least be cell phones available. Stop him , call for RM, and wait if necessary

Around here the peer pressure or friendly jabs by fellow shooters is 99% effective in keeping all in line.

If shooters are that bad, I wouldn't care to squad with them in the future

[ZackJones]

Regarding reaching the RM - unless you have a huge range there is no reason the RM can't be at any given stage in a reasonable amount of time. At Area 6 match at South River we had 12 stages running and I don't think we ever waited more than 5 minutes for the RM to show up for steel calibration.

[Adam B]

Isn't this a game and aren't we all gamers?

I couldn't agree more, the problem is that many people need to have "the control" and once you find a way to take it away from them, they get furious (even try to disqualify you) for doing so even though your within the boundary of the rules.

[cnote]

Isn't this a game and aren't we all gamers?

I couldn't agree more, the problem is that many people need to have "the control" and once you find a way to take it away from them, they get furious (even try to disqualify you) for doing so even though your within the boundary of the rules.

never...

[alma]

Isn't this a game and aren't we all gamers?

I couldn't agree more, the problem is that many people need to have "the control" and once you find a way to take it away from them, they get furious (even try to disqualify you) for doing so even though your within the boundary of the rules.

never...

I can't imagine anyone who is participating on this thread being overbearing and argumentative at the range.

[Hotchkiss]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

It's not that simple at all matches.

In some cases getting the RM to the stage is going to take considerable time. No problem with if that's the only way to resolve the issue but if there is another more expeditious way to deal with the issue while still being legal/fair then it needs to be considered. A great deal will depend on the communications skills of the RSO in this case. In some cases certain RSOs will only have the option of calling the RM.

For me it is. As soon as the shooter becomes "verbally combative" it's time to get someone else involved.

It might be simple for you to reach that decision to summon the RM, but it's not always so simple to get a RM to a specific stage.

It is if you have a good RM.

Naw.

The RM could be engaged in something else equally or more important 1000' feet away. Really easy to talk about this stuff from behind a computer well away from the match. All the practical considerations just don't even exist.

[MarkCO]

Not just talking. I do actually run several majors and a bunch of local matches every year.

If the ROs have the RMs cell, 80% of RM calls can be handled with a few texts. Just takes a little forethought. Hmm, if I get tied up, what do I do if A, B, or C happens? "Send the competitor to stats where I will meet them" worked the one time out of maybe 500 calls this year where I could not make it there in 5 minutes.

You can play what ifs, but that is the job of the RM. If you are running a stage, run your stages. If you are the RM, have contingencies. If you want a workable solution based on good customer service, there is going to be a solution. If you want to argue minutia that will likely never occur...not interested in complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

It's not that simple at all matches.

In some cases getting the RM to the stage is going to take considerable time. No problem with if that's the only way to resolve the issue but if there is another more expeditious way to deal with the issue while still being legal/fair then it needs to be considered. A great deal will depend on the communications skills of the RSO in this case. In some cases certain RSOs will only have the option of calling the RM.

For me it is. As soon as the shooter becomes "verbally combative" it's time to get someone else involved.

It might be simple for you to reach that decision to summon the RM, but it's not always so simple to get a RM to a specific stage.

It is if you have a good RM.

Naw.

The RM could be engaged in something else equally or more important 1000' feet away. Really easy to talk about this stuff from behind a computer well away from the match. All the practical considerations just don't even exist.

I've run a couple of majors as RM now -- and one of the things that I always make clear to my staff is that their job is to run the shooters through the stages, and my job is to deal with any problem that comes up.

So yes, I'd expect my RO and CRO to make a reasonable attempt to get the competitor to comply with the start position, and if the competitor declines, I expect them to make the range safe, summon me, and run the next shooter.

I'll get there as soon as I can, and resolve the situation. It's really that simple -- and it's the most effective way to run an efficient match. I find that I don't have all that much to do during the match -- if the staff and I put in our time prior to the first shot going off. If you prep correctly, the staff pretty much just runs the match, and the squads flow from stage to stage....

[Hotchkiss]

I've run a couple of majors as RM now -- and one of the things that I always make clear to my staff is that their job is to run the shooters through the stages, and my job is to deal with any problem that comes up.

So yes, I'd expect my RO and CRO to make a reasonable attempt to get the competitor to comply with the start position, and if the competitor declines, I expect them to make the range safe, summon me, and run the next shooter.

I'll get there as soon as I can, and resolve the situation. It's really that simple -- and it's the most effective way to run an efficient match. I find that I don't have all that much to do during the match -- if the staff and I put in our time prior to the first shot going off. If you prep correctly, the staff pretty much just runs the match, and the squads flow from stage to stage....

And I'll say it again that getting the RM involved with every issue other than "run(ning) the shooters through the stages" would be very problematic in terms of time and match flow. I would never want RSOs that were little more than robots. RSOs should be able to reason and be able to effectively deal with people.

It's not always only about match preparation. It's sometimes about who ends up shooting the match.

The reason I'm being so direct on this matter is because being a MD/RM/RSO can be quite simple, but it can also become complicated fairly quickly. Those that discount legitimate questions because "everything is simple" are doing a disservice to those who wish to learn.

"I'll get there as soon as I can." Indeed.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[Hotchkiss]

Not just talking. I do actually run several majors and a bunch of local matches every year.

If the ROs have the RMs cell, 80% of RM calls can be handled with a few texts. Just takes a little forethought. Hmm, if I get tied up, what do I do if A, B, or C happens? "Send the competitor to stats where I will meet them" worked the one time out of maybe 500 calls this year where I could not make it there in 5 minutes.

You can play what ifs, but that is the job of the RM. If you are running a stage, run your stages. If you are the RM, have contingencies. If you want a workable solution based on good customer service, there is going to be a solution. If you want to argue minutia that will likely never occur...not interested in complaining for the sake of complaining.

Given your forethought, why are there need for any texts at all? And what are the shooters doing while the RO and RM are texting one another?

We don't have "stats" where I RO. We have real time electronic scoring.

This entire thread is about "what ifs." Many if not most matches are simple. Some are not depending on the shooters, the targeting, etc. Don't try to discount this as if it doesn't make a difference. If you don't want to discuss this minutia, then don't take part in what is an important thread to me.

[Hotchkiss]

Yes it is, there should at least be cell phones available. Stop him , call for RM, and wait if necessary

Around here the peer pressure or friendly jabs by fellow shooters is 99% effective in keeping all in line.

If shooters are that bad, I wouldn't care to squad with them in the future

The shooters were great for the most part. Of the 120 or so, more than 100 were model competitors. All the rest except for one either had to be tactfully reminded or reminded and then directed (on following strings) to assume the correct starting position.

You're absolutely right that peer pressure is typically very effective. I called a number of mikes throughout the day and any questions (there were very few) were quickly quelled by peer pressure.

It's interesting to reflect on this. When each squad arrived I said "the person keeping score is my second set of eyes and ears. Please watch and listen carefully." On the few occasions I was unsure I would look over at the timer and say "did" and before I could say anything else, the timer would shake their heads with a little frown.

Someone else from the problem person's squad was shooting. I detected a miss but wasn't sure so I looked at the timer. The timer (not the problem person) wasn't watching and just shrugged their shoulders. I asked the shooter "did you miss?" while I pulled out some pocket binos to carefully study the plates from behind the line.

He was a agitated and said "I don't know! I'm shooting very fast! You need to pay attention!" By that time I had studied and counted the bullet marks on the plate in question (one was missing.) All I said was "that's axiomatic", showed the shot timer's display to the timekeeper and added "plus one mike" and that was that. Nice they had taken the time to paint the plates between each shooter...

[MarkCO]

I use real time scoring as well, but you still need stats to do audits and make sure that the scorers are doing what they are supposed to.

Based on some of your responses, maybe you were the problem, not the shooters. The shooter that said you should pay attention was correct. As an RM or a shooter no way I would let you give a miss without going and inspecting the plate. Maybe you should consider taking a range officers course and focus more on the notion that the benefit always goes to the shooter and you have an obligation to provide excellent customer service.

[Hotchkiss]

I use real time scoring as well, but you still need stats to do audits and make sure that the scorers are doing what they are supposed to.

Based on some of your responses, maybe you were the problem, not the shooters. The shooter that said you should pay attention was correct. As an RM or a shooter no way I would let you give a miss without going and inspecting the plate. Maybe you should consider taking a range officers course and focus more on the notion that the benefit always goes to the shooter and you have an obligation to provide excellent customer service.

I was paying attention -- keen attention. Like it or not on that stage it's sometimes like a baseball umpire making a call at first base -- relying on sound as much as sight and sometimes asking for backup -- not that you would know it seems. In this case I mentioned, my backup wasn't paying attention at all.

I think perhaps it's you that "should consider taking a range officers course and focus more on the notion that the benefit always goes to the shooter and you have an obligation to provide excellent customer service." Some of your comments simply don't pass the smell test in an actual match environment. Maybe you should consider being less arrogant and condescending while you're at it.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[MarkCO]

If you see my wanting matches to be run in a manner to provide the best customer service to the competitors as arrogant, well fine, but consistency with excellent customer service should always be the goal of the RO. If you are arguing, you are not doing either.

I have run some of the biggest matches in the US, including the RFC Worlds the last 2 years, so I have a small idea of how to run a match. I have RO'd almost all of the top shooters in RFC, USPSA and 3Gun as well, and know that being a good RO takes work. In that same vein, I know that there have been some circumstances where, as the RO or CRO, it most definitely was not handled well by me and the competitor bristled and became agitated. I stepped back and learned, as any good RO would. You are most welcome to say what you want about me and your competitors, but for the sake of doing it well, some self-examination is always a good thing.

[peterthefish]

In my experience those most in need of an attitude adjustment are those least likely to realize it and most likely to dig their heels in and let everyone else know why they're wrong.

Must be nice to go through life with that type of certainty.

Edited November 5, 2014 by peterthefish

[alma]

In my experience those most in need of an attitude adjustment are those least likely to realize it and most likely to dig their heels on and let everyone else know why they're wrong.

Must be nice to go through life with that type of certainty.

Great and highly applicable observation.

[leas327]

Hotchkiss I am not so sure I would want to shoot a match you are RSOing. You seem to take things too personal. Gaming is using the rules to your advantage. Not complying with the wsb is cheating. Those two things are different, please don't mix them up.

[2MoreChains]

Gaming is using the rules to your advantage. Not complying with the wsb is cheating. Those two things are different, please don't mix them up.

This^

[Hotchkiss]

In my experience those most in need of an attitude adjustment are those least likely to realize it and most likely to dig their heels in and let everyone else know why they're wrong.

Must be nice to go through life with that type of certainty.

Sounds like you would know...

It's been my experience that those quickest to recommend change in others are often those that should be undergoing change themselves.

[Pat Miles]

Gaming is using the rules to your advantage. Not complying with the wsb is cheating. Those two things are different, please don't mix them up.

This^

THIS^^!!!

Edited November 6, 2014 by Pat Miles

[Hotchkiss]

Typo.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[Hotchkiss]

Hotchkiss I am not so sure I would want to shoot a match you are RSOing. You seem to take things too personal. Gaming is using the rules to your advantage. Not complying with the wsb is cheating. Those two things are different, please don't mix them up.

Take a good look at this thread. It began with assumption that I was talking about USPSA when I was not, that the WSB for the stage was faulty, that the whole crew of RSOs needed to be retrained, that the only answer is "just call the RM", that the stage was illegal, that I wasn't paying attention, etc., etc. Nothing but hyperbole.

I wasn't asking for an interpretation of the rules. I wanted to get an idea of how other RSOs act (in the most practical and human of ways) when a competitor becomes argumentative and/or refuses to assume the documented starting position? Like it or not "it's simple, call the RM" isn't a satisfactory answer.

What I have concluded is this. First I would continue to ignore the argumentative/rude part unless it got really bad which it did not in the case I'm discussing. I've never really encountered hardcore rude behavior as an RSO but if I ever do, I would handle it as I would someone not assuming the correct starting position.

For that I would do this: I would have them ULASC, bag and step out of the box even though at least one person said an RSO lacks that authority. I wouldn't hold up the match waiting for the RM that could easily take 10 minutes or more. Once they were out of the box I would call a clear range and then very tactfully explain that they would have the chance to shoot/finish the stage after the rest of the squad cycled through. Whether or not I contacted the RM would depend on how the competitor acted while the plates were being painted. That's where the human part of being an RSO comes in that some are so quick to discount. It's that which I was interested in hearing about. It's not a digital on/off, immediately call the RM situation like some here suggest.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[Nik Habicht]

I've run a couple of majors as RM now -- and one of the things that I always make clear to my staff is that their job is to run the shooters through the stages, and my job is to deal with any problem that comes up.

So yes, I'd expect my RO and CRO to make a reasonable attempt to get the competitor to comply with the start position, and if the competitor declines, I expect them to make the range safe, summon me, and run the next shooter.

I'll get there as soon as I can, and resolve the situation. It's really that simple -- and it's the most effective way to run an efficient match. I find that I don't have all that much to do during the match -- if the staff and I put in our time prior to the first shot going off. If you prep correctly, the staff pretty much just runs the match, and the squads flow from stage to stage....

And I'll say it again that getting the RM involved with every issue other than "run(ning) the shooters through the stages" would be very problematic in terms of time and match flow. I would never want RSOs that were little more than robots. RSOs should be able to reason and be able to effectively deal with people.

It's not always only about match preparation. It's sometimes about who ends up shooting the match.

The reason I'm being so direct on this matter is because being a MD/RM/RSO can be quite simple, but it can also become complicated fairly quickly. Those that discount legitimate questions because "everything is simple" are doing a disservice to those who wish to learn.

"I'll get there as soon as I can." Indeed.

My approach isn't driven from an unwillingness to coach or teach or share what I know. It's also not based on the concept of having CROs who are little more than shooter-moving robots.....

But when we consider that their primary job is to safely and equitably move the competitors through the match, we can also see that we don't want them to get bogged down with problems. That's why when a competitor disputes a scoring call it goes from RO to CRO to Pull the Target and run the next competitor.

There are legitimate reasons why I'm the only person to approve re-shoots too -- I want to fix the problem that led to the re-shoot, if at all possible. Why? Because reshoots get in the way of moving competitors through the match in a timely manner. Why is that one important? Because my volunteer staff gets to go home sooner, and so do the competitors....

Waiting for me to show has never been a huge hold-up, and I can't imagine it turning into one. It really is all about prepping the match and the staff correctly.

[Hotchkiss]

...But when we consider that their primary job is to safely and equitably move the competitors through the match, we can also see that we don't want them to get bogged down with problems. That's why when a competitor disputes a scoring call it goes from RO to CRO to Pull the Target and run the next competitor.

There are legitimate reasons why I'm the only person to approve re-shoots too -- I want to fix the problem that led to the re-shoot, if at all possible. Why? Because reshoots get in the way of moving competitors through the match in a timely manner. Why is that one important? Because my volunteer staff gets to go home sooner, and so do the competitors....

Waiting for me to show has never been a huge hold-up, and I can't imagine it turning into one. It really is all about prepping the match and the staff correctly.

Again, it's not always that easy, not that cut and dried. In the case of steel it's going to take inspection of the target in place -- either behind or over the line and that could take some time if it's the competitors 4th or 5th string.

Your concern about "moving competitors through the match in a timely manner" certainly wasn't shared by those on this thread that suggested an RSO lacks the ability to stop a competitor, to direct them to ULASC/bag their firearm and to have then step aside for the next shooter while possibly (depending on the continued behavior of the shooter) waiting for the RM to appear.

I let a number of competitors in an extremely special/non-competitive squad re-shoot (yeah I know, gasp, anger etc.) when they were having problems with communal equipment. We even went through the process of sorting their 22/45 mags right on the line. I knew I had the time before the next squad would arrive (without calling the MD) and I knew this was a critical learning/morale-boosting moment for that specific squad. The MD putted by on his ATV, paused, observed and witnessed it all with a big smile -- there was no need or desire for him to micromanage as all the RSOs were experienced and well prepared that day.

No one had to stick around later because any RSO exercised their own initiative/ability rather than summon the MD/RM on that day.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Hotchkiss