How strict and "tough" are you with "gamers" when ROin

[Hotchkiss]

How strict and "tough" are you with "gamers" when ROing a stage at a match? It's been my experience that the very best competitors (those you read about on-line) and those close to their level are very easy going and compliant. They intently listen to the stage description and then go to it.

Those at lower levels are very much the same. It's a handful in the middle -- the "gamers" I like to call them, which test my patience the most. I was ROing a stage that began with a modified low-ready -- elbows against sides and arms parallel with the ground. Fairly straight forward but different than any other stage that day. It was a big deal because this was an extremely fast stage.

It was clearly documented on the stage description that was clearly posted.

The gamers were trying to extend their arms as much as possible -- elbows against their guts, etc. Almost all immediately found their sides with their elbows after I reminded them one or more times. One in particular though was emotional and rude. I was tempted to direct them to unload and show clear and then direct them to then review the stage description while the rest of the squad cycled through where they could then complete the stage.

How would you have handled it? This shooter wasn't all that competitive from a match placement standpoint so I got them to get close to the start position and went from there. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

[B45C22]

You have to remember that during the match is not the time to fix mistakes in the WSB. At that point, as long as what he is doing is technically correct then you have to let it go. It is not your job to determine what the intent was and try and correct the course designers lack of detail in the WSB.

If what the shooter was doing was not what was technically directed in the WSB, then the rule book clearly spells out that you are not to begin commands until the competitor has assumed the correct starting position. Nowhere does it say that you have the option of unloading him and making him go read the WSB.

Just like he should follow the rules and the WSB, so must the RO.

[ChuckS]

Hotch,

Was this a USPSA match?

[alma]

If he isn't in the correct start position then instruct him on how to correct that and wait until he has addressed whatever issues you see. As long as he is technically compliant with the WSB you cannot fault or punish him for getting in the most advantages start position allowable.

[Sarge]

Don't kid yourself for a minute. Shooters at the very highest levels will game you to death as an RO.

In our game of uspsa WSB's are practically meant to be gamed. EVERYBODY knows this game revolves around freestyle and will try almost anything to gain an advantage as they become more familiar with it.

As far as your situation you should have done one of two things. Either made the snap decision that the shooter was technically in an acceptable start position and let him shoot or unloaded him and called the RM to work it out. Remember in a local the MD is the RM. RO's get into trouble when they try to interpret the WSB on the fly.

[alma]

And to the point where someone else asked if this was a USPSA match, at no time are you allowed to start holding your gun. The start position would be illegal if you are shooting USPSA.

Edited November 1, 2014 by alma

[ChuckS]

And to the point where someone else asked if this was a USPSA match, at no time are you allowed to start holding your gun. The start position would be illegal if you are shooting USPSA.

Yup.8.2.3...

[Sarge]

Guess I didn't decipher the low ready part correctly. I thought he was just talking about arms pointed forward with elbows in sides.

If you guys are starting shooters with guns in their hands I would quit worrying about gamers and set up an RO class for everybody!

[xrayfk05]

Noone said anything about starting with a gun in the hand. Extending your arms when holding a gun would be counter productive.

Parallel is parallel, otherwise you will be cutting the first guy some slack, the second guy a bit more and where does it end?

[alma]

Noone said anything about starting with a gun in the hand. Extending your arms when holding a gun would be counter productive.

Parallel is parallel, otherwise you will be cutting the first guy some slack, the second guy a bit more and where does it end?

"modified low-ready" it what I was picking up on. Low ready to me means gun in hand pointed low.

[ChuckS]

Noone said anything about starting with a gun in the hand. Extending your arms when holding a gun would be counter productive.

Parallel is parallel, otherwise you will be cutting the first guy some slack, the second guy a bit more and where does it end?

--- snip --- I was ROing a stage that began with a modified low-ready --- snip --- .

[xrayfk05]

Ah yeah. Probably a steel match?

[alma]

Doubtful if he was talking about a WSB.

[Jaxshooter]

This was probably a 3 gun match with a low ready start position. If so it is a legal position.

[alma]

This was probably a 3 gun match with a low ready start position. If so it is a legal position.

Both arms parallel to the ground doesn't sound like a shotgun or rifle start and I have never seen a 3 Gun match start with pistol in hand. I don't think it is allowed under most rulesets but would have to review.

[Hotchkiss]

Hotch,

Was this a USPSA match?

No, it was not.

It was an NSSF Rimfire Challenge match.

It was most certainly a legal starting position.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[Hotchkiss]

You have to remember that during the match is not the time to fix mistakes in the WSB. At that point, as long as what he is doing is technically correct then you have to let it go. It is not your job to determine what the intent was and try and correct the course designers lack of detail in the WSB.

If what the shooter was doing was not what was technically directed in the WSB, then the rule book clearly spells out that you are not to begin commands until the competitor has assumed the correct starting position. Nowhere does it say that you have the option of unloading him and making him go read the WSB.

Just like he should follow the rules and the WSB, so must the RO.

What are you talking about? There were no "mistakes" in the WSB of the stage I was ROing. Please don't try to inject extraneous/false information into the question I asked.

In retrospect I only had two other options. Either start adding 2 second procedural penalties to each run (which would have ruined this stage for that shooter), or I could have unloaded them (perfectly within the power of the RO at that match), gave them time to reflect and hoped for the best.

[Hotchkiss]

Ah yeah. Probably a steel match?

Indeed.

[Hotchkiss]

Guess I didn't decipher the low ready part correctly. I thought he was just talking about arms pointed forward with elbows in sides.

If you guys are starting shooters with guns in their hands I would quit worrying about gamers and set up an RO class for everybody!

Why make comments like this when it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? Both Steel Challenge (for rimfire shooters) and NSSF Rimfire Challenge begin at "low ready" which means gun in hand -- typically pointed at something or with other directions such as the ones I noted.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[herky]

No offense intended, but your initial post did not specify what type of match. This caused the misinterpretation of gun in hand at the start.

[Hotchkiss]

No offense intended, but your initial post did not specify what type of match. This caused the misinterpretation of gun in hand at the start.

That's why I posted it here (General Match Issues) and not in the USPSA or other specific match forums.

[alma]

You have to remember that during the match is not the time to fix mistakes in the WSB. At that point, as long as what he is doing is technically correct then you have to let it go. It is not your job to determine what the intent was and try and correct the course designers lack of detail in the WSB.

If what the shooter was doing was not what was technically directed in the WSB, then the rule book clearly spells out that you are not to begin commands until the competitor has assumed the correct starting position. Nowhere does it say that you have the option of unloading him and making him go read the WSB.

Just like he should follow the rules and the WSB, so must the RO.

What are you talking about? There were no "mistakes" in the WSB of the stage I was ROing. Please don't try to inject extraneous/false information into the question I asked.

In retrospect I only had two other options. Either start adding 2 second procedural penalties to each run (which would have ruined this stage for that shooter), or I could have unloaded them (perfectly within the power of the RO at that match), gave them time to reflect and hoped for the best.

What you were describing didn't sound like a false start which would warrant the +2 ("3.5.6 A false start will incur a 2-second penalty.")

Looks like you could move them down though as you suggested:

"7.2.3 If the participant is not prepared and it would cause a severe delay while they prepare, the RSO may move them down in the shooting order until they are prepared."

More here. I think you instruct them on where they are not correct and wait for them to assume the position.

"8.1 Range Commands

8.1.1 “Shooter Load and Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of the course of fire. Under the direct supervision of the RSO, the participant must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the RSO, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The participant must then assume the required start position. At this point, the RSO will proceed."

Edited November 1, 2014 by alma

[Hotchkiss]

You have to remember that during the match is not the time to fix mistakes in the WSB. At that point, as long as what he is doing is technically correct then you have to let it go. It is not your job to determine what the intent was and try and correct the course designers lack of detail in the WSB.

If what the shooter was doing was not what was technically directed in the WSB, then the rule book clearly spells out that you are not to begin commands until the competitor has assumed the correct starting position. Nowhere does it say that you have the option of unloading him and making him go read the WSB.

Just like he should follow the rules and the WSB, so must the RO.

What are you talking about? There were no "mistakes" in the WSB of the stage I was ROing. Please don't try to inject extraneous/false information into the question I asked.

In retrospect I only had two other options. Either start adding 2 second procedural penalties to each run (which would have ruined this stage for that shooter), or I could have unloaded them (perfectly within the power of the RO at that match), gave them time to reflect and hoped for the best.

What you were describing didn't sound like a false start which would warrant the +2 ("3.5.6 A false start will incur a 2-second penalty.")

Looks like you could move them down though as you suggested:

"7.2.3 If the participant is not prepared and it would cause a severe delay while they prepare, the RSO may move them down in the shooting order until they are prepared."

More here. I think you instruct them on where they are not correct and wait for them to assume the position.

"8.1 Range Commands

8.1.1 “Shooter Load and Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of the course of fire. Under the direct supervision of the RSO, the participant must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the RSO, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing. The participant must then assume the required start position. At this point, the RSO will proceed."

There are other ways to incur a 2 second procedural penalty in addition to a false start, hence my question. This shooter's gaming was worth at least .05/run, and possibly as much as .15/run. Even though they were static, they were already in a position that would have required motion if they were actually complying to the stage description starting point.

During that match, the RSO certainly could have told the shooter to unload, show clear, secure their firearm and then step out of the box. Had the shooter not yet fired for that stage, I would have done just that. Had they not settled down at that point, I would have quietly summoned the MD/RM.

FWIW, probably a dozen or more shooters played the game of "elbows against gut" or "elbows spread like wings" until they were cautioned, where each and every one of them then magically (and instantly) assumed the precise position of the stage description.

It was this one individual shooter that gave me pause. Based on their score, I suspect they were rattled to boot.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[alma]

More from the rulebook that may or may not help:

Looks like the alternate start position is a bit vague about exactly what elbows at sides can be.

"7.1 Starting Position

7.1.1 Handgun Participant will start with handgun in hand(s) ready to fire with the safety disengaged, aiming at a designated object (orange cone) 10 feet down range. Alternate start position may be elbows at side with arms and gun barrel parallel with ground."

Possible action here but I imagine it would be only in an extreme case:

"8.1.10 Failure to comply with RSO commands will result in a warning. Two warnings of any kind on a single stage will result in a match disqualification."

"13.1 Participants will be disqualified from a match for conduct that a Match Official deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official or any behavior likely to negatively impact the image of the sport. The MD must be notified of any such conduct as soon as possible."

EDIT:

I don't really see any other +2 penalties that would apply here.

3.5 Penalties

3.5.1 Each missed target will incur a 2-second penalty.

3.5.2 Failure to finish the course of fire during a string or not hitting the Stop Plate results in a 30-second penalty time (total time) for that string.

3.5.3 The maximum score for any string is 30 seconds, no matter how many misses or penalties may have been accrued during the string.

3.5.4 Calculate all misses per string, not per stage. In a match where the shooter is allowed to drop the highest time for each stage, any miss penalties applying to the string/score being dropped will also be dropped.

3.5.5 Foot fault, shooter engaging targets while his/her foot is in contact with the ground outside the designated shooting area will incur a 2-second penalty per shot fired while in fault condition.

3.5.6 A false start will incur a 2-second penalty.

3.5.7 The shooter must attempt to engage every target in the COF, if the competitor intentionally fails to engage all the targets in the COF the string time will be 30 seconds and a warning will be issued by the RSO. If the shooter continues to purposefully skip targets in the COF that competitor will be disqualified under paragraph 13.1 Competitor Conduct.

3.5.8 It is the shooter’s responsibility to provide the correct score sheet for each course of fire and entry division, and to verify his/her scores as written on the score sheet when finished shooting each course of fire.

3.5.8.1 Any questions regarding the scores entered on the score sheet should be directed to the RSO on the course of fire before signing the score sheet. If questions remain, the Match Director should be summoned.

3.5.8.2 When the score sheet has been signed by the participant and the RSO, it is definitive and cannot be changed other than to correct math errors or by mutual consent of the MD and participant.

Edited November 1, 2014 by alma

[B45C22]

I apologize if my post came off as something other than what was intended. You are clearly "tougher" than I am. You have snapped back at everybody who has offered their opinion here. If you are so set in your ways and ideas, why ask the question?

Edited November 1, 2014 by B45C22