Nimitz Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 hey, what Turnpike exit do you live off of? I grew up in Jersey when I wasn't involved with guns so their laws didn't bother me ... Right after buying my G34 I sent it to Accurate Iron to have the grip stippled and could never figure out what the big deal about grip rules was .... now that I own an actual competition Production gun things are different .... I would e-mail Troy in a heartbeat if I thought an official ruling would come of it, otherwise it's ... " wait, you can't move me to Open, I have an e-mail from Troy in my range bag saying I'm ok ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) I would e-mail Troy in a heartbeat if I thought an official ruling would come of it, It would be nice to at least have some idea of what the intent of the rule is. I surmise that the rule would exclude dramatically weird grips like you see on some target pistols, but generally allow grips that look 'normal' whatever that is. Clearly all the normal aftermarket grips are ok, right? Edited October 15, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Ok, so hypothetically ... let's say I take a CZ thin aluminum grip. I mix up some epoxy putty and cover the grip. I then let it set a while until it starts to get hard. I then put this grip back on the pistol and take my normal grip with the gun thereby reshaping it to form fit my hand. I then let it set overnight until hard. I then get out some sandpaper and smooth the surface followed by some more epoxy followed by some more sanding until I get a nice smooth surface. Then I take some more 2 part epoxy gel from Lowes and apply a thin coat over the grip and cover the grip with SiCa ..... are you saying that grip is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Ok, so hypothetically ... let's say I take a CZ thin aluminum grip. I mix up some epoxy putty and cover the grip. I then let it set a while until it starts to get hard. I then put this grip back on the pistol and take my normal grip with the gun thereby reshaping it to form fit my hand. I then let it set overnight until hard. I then get out some sandpaper and smooth the surface followed by some more epoxy followed by some more sanding until I get a nice smooth surface. Then I take some more 2 part epoxy gel from Lowes and apply a thin coat over the grip and cover the grip with SiCa ..... are you saying that grip is ok? I personally would say that is ok unless it looks abnormally bulbous. But I've been known to be wrong (I'm married, after all). My cz grips are hand epoxied and sanded, but the end result is that they look pretty much like any flat grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Hmmmm .... It might be fun to stir the pot a little and send an email Troy now that Production Optics is dead ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Ok, so hypothetically ... let's say I take a CZ thin aluminum grip. I mix up some epoxy putty and cover the grip. I then let it set a while until it starts to get hard. I then put this grip back on the pistol and take my normal grip with the gun thereby reshaping it to form fit my hand. I then let it set overnight until hard. I then get out some sandpaper and smooth the surface followed by some more epoxy followed by some more sanding until I get a nice smooth surface. Then I take some more 2 part epoxy gel from Lowes and apply a thin coat over the grip and cover the grip with SiCa ..... are you saying that grip is ok? The one thing I have read repeatedly is that reshaping grips to add or remove finger grooves is not allowed. So if you're forming it to your hand to the point that you now have finger grooves, that's a violation. That's why guys with Glock Gen-whatevers that have finger grooves can't sand them off. They can buy another Gen that doesn't have them (and probably switch the frames without anyone noticing), but if they see you sanded them down, you get busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Ok, so hypothetically ... let's say I take a CZ thin aluminum grip. I mix up some epoxy putty and cover the grip. I then let it set a while until it starts to get hard. I then put this grip back on the pistol and take my normal grip with the gun thereby reshaping it to form fit my hand. I then let it set overnight until hard. I then get out some sandpaper and smooth the surface followed by some more epoxy followed by some more sanding until I get a nice smooth surface. Then I take some more 2 part epoxy gel from Lowes and apply a thin coat over the grip and cover the grip with SiCa ..... are you saying that grip is ok? The one thing I have read repeatedly is that reshaping grips to add or remove finger grooves is not allowed. So if you're forming it to your hand to the point that you now have finger grooves, that's a violation. That's why guys with Glock Gen-whatevers that have finger grooves can't sand them off. They can buy another Gen that doesn't have them (and probably switch the frames without anyone noticing), but if they see you sanded them down, you get busted. But the glock grooves are part of the frame. That's totally different than a removable grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 But the glock grooves are part of the frame. That's totally different than a removable grip. True as far as removing them. But you can't add them via epoxy putty like Nimitz was hypothesizing, either. Just like you can't put Hogue rubber finger groove grips on a gun with removable panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just like you can't put Hogue rubber finger groove grips on a gun with removable panels. Where does it say that? If the finger groove grips come in sleeve form, then keep the original removable panel in place, and slip on the sleeve. D4.21.4 specifically allows sleeves: For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just like you can't put Hogue rubber finger groove grips on a gun with removable panels. Where does it say that? If the finger groove grips come in sleeve form, then keep the original removable panel in place, and slip on the sleeve. D4.21.4 specifically allows sleeves: For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Sky, keep going -- you'll eventually reach 22.2 in Appendix D4: 22.2 Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory pro- file or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest. So yes you can add a grip sleeve, but not a grip sleeve that recontours the grip or adds finger grooves..... Unless you can find me language that specifically contravenes that, or you're shooting a revolver.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Ah! Excellent. Interesting..., but a sleeve by its nature adds material. So with 21.4 and 22.2 combined, for semi-autos it's okay to add material via sleeve as long as the original profile is maintained. But how can the original profile be maintained where without the sleeve the grip is thinner and with the grip it's thicker? Or are we saying that a US penny and a quarter have the same profile because they are both still cylindrical, but one is smaller and thinner, while the other is bigger and thicker? But a Canadian loonie does not have the same profile because it has 11 sides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 you have all circled back to my original issue .... what exactly is the standard "factory profile" grip that we are using for this rule? there are so many companies who sell CZ grips out there, all with different profiles and contours, which one are we using that I can't deviate from? I have never heard that only certain grips from certain companies are legal to use on a Production legal CZ? Where is the list of grips that is not allowed to be used on a CZ in Production? Can I start to manufacture & sell CZ grips and use the profile I come up with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magsz Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Production=clown shoes. Just team up with CZ Custom and you will be an OEM (wink) manufacturer of grips which means...NO PROBLEMS! .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Ah! Excellent. Interesting..., but a sleeve by its nature adds material. So with 21.4 and 22.2 combined, for semi-autos it's okay to add material via sleeve as long as the original profile is maintained. But how can the original profile be maintained where without the sleeve the grip is thinner and with the grip it's thicker? Or are we saying that a US penny and a quarter have the same profile because they are both still cylindrical, but one is smaller and thinner, while the other is bigger and thicker? But a Canadian loonie does not have the same profile because it has 11 sides? Perhaps the rule-writers envisioned things like grip tape and sleeves adding uniform thickness to the grip, rather than customizing something to fit your hand. But that still doesn't answer the question of which profile you should adhere to when adding that uniform thickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Ah! Excellent. Interesting..., but a sleeve by its nature adds material. So with 21.4 and 22.2 combined, for semi-autos it's okay to add material via sleeve as long as the original profile is maintained. But how can the original profile be maintained where without the sleeve the grip is thinner and with the grip it's thicker? Or are we saying that a US penny and a quarter have the same profile because they are both still cylindrical, but one is smaller and thinner, while the other is bigger and thicker? But a Canadian loonie does not have the same profile because it has 11 sides? Grip tape adds material too....... While we haven't defined it to a maximum number of layers, I think we'll know it when we see it...... Simple grip sleeve no problem. Simple application of grip tape no problem..... Using either to significantly build up the grip or add features not previously found = problem..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 This all sounds too much like IDPA "objectivity" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 This is still way too subjective for me .... Since there are probably 20 different companies out there making CZ grips, all with different profies and shapes, why are my grips that I manufacturer with my very outstanding ghetto gunsmitting skills not legal as long as they don't extend below the grip making A makeshift magwell or some type of beavertail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Any definitive ruling on this yet? Looking to sand and silica carbide some CZ panels to fit my hands. Options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 You can't change the profile on the grips. I epoxy and carbided my left side grip panel, and it ended up about 1.5 mm wider than the right panel. I was worried I'd get shit for that so I emailed Troy, and got his blessing. Slightly sanding your grip and applying glue/grit should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 i did the same thing but the grip panel doesn't extend past any other Z grip panel, it's just thicker so it fits my hand better ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 exactly what grip profile is defined in the rulebook as the one we can't deviate from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 exactly what grip profile is defined in the rulebook as the one we can't deviate from? What did troy say when you emailed him about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 hmmmm ... never got around to doing that .... too busy trying to get ready for Ben's class so I wouldn't embarrass myself ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 (edited) i also learned a long time ago to never ask a question that you can't stand the answer to ..... Edited February 7, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaraW Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) It's not the just the grip profile, it's the profile of the entire gun that can't be changed. For example if you smoothed the front strap of a glock where the finger grooves are the profile would be different, or changed the shape of the trigger guard. Think about it like this, if you lay the gun on a piece of paper and trace around it, then do whatever it is you want. If you retraced it would the line be the same? If not, you have changed the profile of the gun. Edit to add that the rule book does not define any specific profile, it's just the factory profile of each approved gun. Edited February 8, 2015 by MaraW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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