GSonnen Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'm drawing up plans to build a rifle for PRS matches. I know the basics of ranging optics. For shooters who have shot both MOA and MRAD reticles in competition, which would run if you were building your first rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Doesn't really matter that much which reticle you use, but it does matter whether or not the reticle matches the turrets. Traditionally scopes came with Mil reticles and MOA turrets. Most were also SFP scopes. So, really, there was probably going to be some math. Today, you can get an FFP scope with matching reticle and turret. That means that, what you see is what you dial. Shooting a Mil high, just dial in a 1 mil correction. Range card tells you to dial in a 2 mil correction for distance, you can just hold 2 Mils instead. Not comfortable with Mils? Get a scope with MOA reticle and turrets. You also get slightly finer adjustments with 1/4 MOA vs 0.1 Mil Edited October 10, 2014 by Graham Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootsforfun Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I shoot mil/mil and so dose everyone I shot with. Just sold my last moa scope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Agree with Graham. If you think better in one or the other, that might move you that way. I have optics on more rifles than I should admit to and they all used to be MOA based. I switched to Mil based on all of my competition rifles last year and while I have not had any problems, it does seem simpler overall, especially while dialing on the clock. 4.6 just seems easier to dial in under pressure than 16 1/4. But yes, they have to match. If you have not yet looked at the Burris XTRII line-up, you might want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootsforfun Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Short action precision sells optics for competitive shooters. Give him a call and he can help you out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSonnen Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Agree with Graham. If you think better in one or the other, that might move you that way. I have optics on more rifles than I should admit to and they all used to be MOA based. I switched to Mil based on all of my competition rifles last year and while I have not had any problems, it does seem simpler overall, especially while dialing on the clock. 4.6 just seems easier to dial in under pressure than 16 1/4. But yes, they have to match. If you have not yet looked at the Burris XTRII line-up, you might want to. MarkCO, Was your switch to Mil due to the simpler calculations or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Frankly, it was a reticle choice...liked the Mil better than the MOA. Tried it and found it to be simpler. Also, since most of the guys shooting Practical/Sniper matches are using mil/mil, I did not have to do any conversions in my head after someone else shot to get a better read on where I would be. If it was not for a time pressure, I might leave them mixed. Most of my hunting rifles have a straight crosshair or a BDC type reticle. The past year I have used some dialing and the mil, again seemed simpler. I figure if there is anything to deal with other than pulling the trigger, I want all of that to be simpler. I tend to enjoy the analytical and thought process as much as the shooting, so minimizing that aspect tends to keep me on track listening to the correct monkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Mil reticle with Mil turrets is the way to go. That way if you want to click or hold over the numbers match, no math needed. If you get a second focal plane scope the reticle will only be correct at a single power, usually the highest power. With a first focal plane scope the reticle will be correct at all powers. For long range matches I went with a NightForce F1, 3.5-15 scope with FFP and Mil/Mil. I've found it really easy to use. It has Zero Stop and has 10 Mils of elevation adjustment in a single turn which is enough to get to 1000 yards with my .260. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointblanktx Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Doug H. pretty much summed it up if you want to shoot PRS style matches. It is a no brainer to go with a mil/mil scope...first focal if you can afford it. You will be much happier in the long run as well when you really start using or depending on hold over and holding for wind, and making on the fly corrections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 FFP scope is more important than using either mil or MOA as either will work just fine. It's more about what the user is most comfortable with. Doug said "Mil reticle with Mil turrets is the way to go. That way if you want to click or hold over the numbers match, no math needed". The same goes with MOA FFP scopes. Get a scope with around 20-25x top end, good usable reticle, matching reticle and knobs in either MOA or Mil and FFP. That will work well for you. The whole 1/4 MOA is finer than .1 mil is true but the difference is literally 1" at 1000 yards. .1 mil is 3.6" at 1000 yards and 1/4 MOA is 2.6". You can;t read the wind good enough at that range to make a difference in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Well said Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSonnen Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Thanks for all the input. Over the weekend, I found an online retailer with the Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 Mil/Mil with the EBR-2B reticle (FFP) on sale. Trigger has been pulled on this. Yall were a ton of help in the hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob01 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 You made a good choice. The Gen 1 Razor is a very good scope and will do you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Not sure what all this mil/mil stuff is. I shoot front sight focal plane and my rear sight is minute of accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiasushi Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/20/mil-vs-moa-an-objective-comparison/ here's a pretty good writeup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 For anyone else in this market, the bargain of bargains is the Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR 3.5-21x50mm G2 reticle (model ET35215G, not the ERS) If take your time and shop around you can find this scope for as low as $1150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charms Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I just picked up a Bushnell LRHS 3-12 for a tactical hunter build in 6.5SLR. It has a lot of features for the money and doesn't weigh 4 lbs. 10 mils/rev with zero stop a decent GAP style ret. Most precision rifle guys have a lot more power but I used it in a match recently and had no problem at 1200 yards. (seeing that is. Hitting is a whole different thing) When they come out with the 4.5-18 it may be a better fit for PRS work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Now I'm pissed, your 6.5slr had me intrigued so I Googled it, every other result was a snipershide thread that's now long gone. Did manage to find good info elsewhere though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireShooter Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 MOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
427Cobra Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Come out and shoot TEXAS Club matches with us, we all use MRAD optics, it's the tool of choice for this type of shooting, MOA scopes are the perfect tool for static fixed positioned shooting like F-Class Benchrest, the key to either system is NOT to convert angular measurements to inches feet centimeters lightyears, and yes get a FFP scope with a reticle with matching knobs. Edited November 11, 2014 by 427Cobra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbear_98 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I wholeheartedly agree that the reticle and knobs should match and that no matter what you have you should think in those measurements. FFP is nice if you are going to truly use the reticle for holds or measurements at ALL magnification. In my opinion, to say one is easier or better than the other is subjective. Ford vs Chevy. They are both angular measurements. If your shooting partner has a moa scope and you have a mil scope, then you have to convert to discuss your holds. Which have you heard the most "that target is a 1.164 mil big." Or "that target is 4 moa big"? "My group was .145 mils" or "my group is 1/2 moa". Most of the time people say 1" is 1 moa. A 4" target at 100 yards to them is a 4 moa target, when it is actually a 3.82 moa target. Either way to measure with an imperial measurement device you have to break it down to inches. You can't measure something without referencing a measurement system you know and understand. 1 moa= 1.047 inches 1 mil= 3.6 inches. I have scopes in both types. I like using moa and find myself breaking Mils to moa. Just my personal preference. Congrats on he vortex. It is a great scope and you will not be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMonty Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 Tomato vs Tomaato debate, primary consideration would be having matching reticle to turret. MIL/MIL , MOA/MOA, just comes down to what numbers are on the screen at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpollard Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 This advice comes from another new shooter to the long range game. I am currently using an MOA/MOA scope. My advice for you is to use whatever the other people you shoot with use. Most of the guys at my range shoot MIL/MIL so I feel like it's harder for them to help me since they are using different system. I plan to switch to MIL/MIL just so I can learn faster with their input. I think either system is fine, both are effective if you take the time to learn it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I plan to switch to MIL/MIL just so I can learn faster with their input. Yes, and no - it depends on what you are getting for input. If all you are getting is, "Go up three clicks.", then you aren't really learning all that much. If you want to really learn, I mean really deep down learn, then the angular measure you are using shouldn't matter. You need to get comfortable with both systems and the math and even with English vs Metric measurements. Comfortable to the point where you can be a spotter for someone else and have it not matter what they are using. Your mileage may vary. Offer not available in all states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpollard Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 (edited) I plan to switch to MIL/MIL just so I can learn faster with their input. Yes, and no - it depends on what you are getting for input. If all you are getting is, "Go up three clicks.", then you aren't really learning all that much. If you want to really learn, I mean really deep down learn, then the angular measure you are using shouldn't matter. You need to get comfortable with both systems and the math and even with English vs Metric measurements. Comfortable to the point where you can be a spotter for someone else and have it not matter what they are using. Your mileage may vary. Offer not available in all states. You make very valid points and I agree. I should clarify, I believe it would be easier to learn the finer points if there is someone there that has gone before you teaching you the same material. Again, I'm still new to this so nuance may be lost on me but there is only so much I can learn by reading. I learn by reading and then going out and doing. If I'm the only guy shooting MOA then it is hard to have people teach me MOA in the field if all they know is MIL. Edited November 26, 2014 by dpollard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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