TonytheTiger Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I'm finally getting in the CZ pistol club, buying a 9mm TS with the intention of using it for 3 gun. What I'm wondering is why some of the greatest pistols on earth (CZ's of course) seem to be having such a hard time breaking into the 3 gun market? How is say for instance a 75b SA for under $600 a worse place to start then an FNS, Glock, M&P or any other of the popular guns in that price range? Because I've shot all of the above and in my opinion, there's no comparison. Could it just be lack of marketing? Just curious of people's thoughts on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Not entirely sure but I suspect it's partly because there aren't many out there and people go with what they know. Also,many take comfort in the striker fired guns that require no safety manipulation to safely dump. I think the 9mm TS is an inherently more reliable platform than the 9mm 2011. Magazines easily hold 23. Other than holsters and weight one of the only shortcomings I can think of is there isn't much real-estate for racking the slide for all of those empty chamber starts. I have a slide racker that will shortly find its way into my TS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Nice shooting and good points, although weight doesn't bother me I've heard people whine about it before. Still no excuse for people ignoring an entire brand of pistols though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amish_rabbi Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I'm sure if you looked at 3 gun in areas that shot IPSC and not UPSA before 3 gun was big you will see a lot more CZs being used since while people in the US are just changing to da/sa guns for production, they have been the dominant configuration in IPSC for quite a long time, and the CZ shadow was/is probably the most popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 I can't relate to this, just because my area seems to be a competition shooting black hole, not much going on till 3 gun just started showing up. I could be wrong, maybe there's more around here than I thought but for the most part guns are for hunting and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Maybe its because people that care enough to spend $1200 plus on a production gun are more worried about concentrating on 1 division then shooting multiple disciplines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 If I were buying a CZ for 3 gun it would be a P09. If I were CZ, I would market the P09 to 3 gunners... The 75s take messing with followers and springs to get the mag capacity up to 23, TS makes for a very heavy minor gun... YMMV. I'm going to try the 75 pre B in 3 gun after I sort out mag extensions. P09 is closer in weight and features to the M&P, Glock, FNS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I agree with Alma's points above. I'd also add that the TS in 9mm is not easy to find. If you could buy them all day long, things might look a little different. I have both a CZ and a Glock. Currently, the Glock gets the nod for 3Gun for 2 reasons. First - abandonment (no safety to put on), Second - price. 3Gun is hard on stuff, and I'd rather beat on a Glock than a nice pistol whether it is a CZ or 2011 variant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I have mags for my ACCU as well. 18 round CZ mags plus CZC 140mm basepads, springs and followers easily gives me a reliable 22 rounds. Right now that acts as my backup if I ever have issues with the TS. The trigger on the TS is outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Bigfish: around here its split pretty even between the plastics and 2011's so money can't be the entire issue. MikeRush: I'm also talking about p09's, sp01's etc not just TS's or shadows. But on that note, in the year I've been dabbling in 3g I've been running a FNX, and the more I get into the sport the dumber running and modifying a duty gun for comp use seems. Also since I'm only talking about comp use, weight seems to be a non issue to me, if not an advantage. And none of the plastic fantastics start with 23 round capacities either. Fishsticks: my personal experience is the opposite. My daily gun (FNX) goes everywhere with me and gets no special love. It actually thinks it's on vacation when I shoot a match. My comp gun will shoot 10x the rounds and only see 1/10 the abuse. If your shooting competitively why not shoot a comp gun? But on either side of the fence, why aren't p09's, sp01's and such biting into the Glock/M&P market and why aren't Shadows/TS's gaining any traction with the also heavy and expensive 2011 crowd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon49erfan Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I ran a TS in 40 before moving to a 9mm TS and finally a czechmate in limited configuration. I Love shooting a heavy gun in 9mm for 3 gun. Point in general direction of target, squeeze twice. Both will be on target. Only downside is that retention holsters are non existent unless you get a race holster. I use a bladetech and crank it down. Haven't dropped a gun yet *fingers crossed*. Abandonment isn't a big deal with a manual safety, just ask everyone that shoots a 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Agreed. I already have to put the safety on my rifle and shotgun, why not my pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwhitedd Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Why? How about that the competitors are coming from USPSA so they already have their STI's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 You got me there. I guess I'm an oddity in that I can only afford to shoot one kind of competition and because of that I want one top of the line gun chosen or designed specifically for that purpose. No playing musical guns here, just 3 good guns for 3 gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 You got me there. I guess I'm an oddity in that I can only afford to shoot one kind of competition and because of that I want one top of the line gun chosen or designed specifically for that purpose. No playing musical guns here, just 3 good guns for 3 gun. I don't know that that is the case- it seems like most guys aren't shooting limited guns (basically an Edge in 40) in 3 gun. Most guys that are shooting 2011s in 3 gun are shooting 9s purchased specifically for that role as there isn't really a good home for a minor 2011 in USPSA (although a Steel Challenge and/or IDPA 2011 would make an excellent 3 gun pistol). Also, most 3 gun 2011 guys seem to be shooting 9s with short dust covers and/or bushing barrels- lighter guns. Even the heavy Edge is almost a half pound lighter than a TS and the gap widens with the SDC, bushing, and lightening cuts. The STI is pricier than the TS by about $500, but with the expenses of 3 gun another $500 to purchase a 2011 is a relatively small amount. Weight matters to some- maybe not to you but most people transition a lighter gun faster and at minor don't feel they need the weight for recoil. Either way I think the CZ style guns are gaining in production because its the most race you can buy in PD rules- AccuShadow, Stock 2, etc vs Glocks with factory appearing triggers, etc. In three gun Shadows and TS occupy somewhat of a middle ground- there's your entry level appx. $600 guns (here is where the 75 SA or P09 would shine), or the no compromise approach- if you are buying a JP rifle and a TTI Benelli the STI isn't an expensive gun. Please don't take any of this as being adversarial- I've more than filled my quota of internet arguments for my lifetime earlier this year. I'm just offering my understanding in response to your question of why you don't see more CZs in 3 gun. Like I said I'm going to give my 75 a shot (pun intended) in 3 gun here soon. I think if CZ were to put a little effort into marketing the P09 to 3 gunners, or could persuade a top 3 gunner to switch (look at EG and Stoeger for Tanfoglio in production) they would gain more popularity and recognition with the 3 gun crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) http://youtu.be/eSDn7L0iUFk CZ P09 Is a pretty nice Gat! Edited October 9, 2014 by P.E. Kelley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Nothing adversarial at all, I asked a question and expected and hoped for any and all opinions whether or not they're similar to my own. And you brought up some perspectives I hadn't thought of. That's what I love about this forum, we can have perfectly friendly discussions or debates and all agree to disagree and still get along. That and I learn something every time I log in. Edited October 9, 2014 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 And good luck with the 75 in 3 gun, let us know how it goes. And are you planning on modifying it to catch up to the no compromise guys or leaving it alone and putting a hurt on the entry level pistol guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon49erfan Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Mike- where are you finding an Edge for $1600? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 MikeRush, whatever for you consider a heavy Edge to weight? Stock with most common options looks to be around 39. My TS is about 41. I have considered removing some weight from the slide and have removed some from the frame but not that much. At FNH there was another guy on my squad who was shooting a chromed out CZ 75B with some beautiful wood grips. While watching other squads shoot I even saw someone who looked to be running a CZC CTS that looked to be built off of a 75 frame. For myself I had been focusing on Production division in the past but wanted to get a dedicated single action 3 Gun pistol that had a longer sight radius than my Shadow but still had CZ ergonomics and a hinged trigger. I figured that would let me move back and forth between Production and 3 gun easier than if I was using a 2011. After getting my 140mm mags built for the Shadow I briefly considered using that for 3 gun and starting it cocked and locked when possible but the trigger on the TS was just too nice to give up and I appreciated the extra sight radius on some of the longer shots. I have the CZ P09 on my wish list just to build one up and see how I like it. For Production division I would likely leave it configured for decock so that tg the first double action pull is actually coming off of a half cocked position but for 3 gun I would likely want it configured for the manual safety to let me start with the hammer cocked and on safe and to allow my to put the gun on safe before ditching. That's my thoughts anyway. I would have to test to see which method really works best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Mr. Kelley, informative video as always. Off topic but I liked your video about the Barnes Precision Machine tactical match carbine. I'm a little biased though as I happen to own one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Last I seen Patrick Neal was running a CTS. Just something I thought of. And the sight radius of the TS was a big selling point for me, I can do amazing things past 60yds with a 6" single action revolver I own that I can't come close to replicating with any shorter guns I've shot, even though mechanical accuracy of the guns is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Mr. Kelley, informative video as always. Off topic but I liked your video about the Barnes Precision Machine tactical match carbine. I'm a little biased though as I happen to own one. That Barnes carbine is the best out of the box gun for the money I have ever had my hands on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Mr. Kelley, informative video as always. Off topic but I liked your video about the Barnes Precision Machine tactical match carbine. I'm a little biased though as I happen to own one.That Barnes carbine is the best out of the box gun for the money I have ever had my hands on!Your opinion carries weight sir, you just made my night! I sold two of those rifles just by letting some buddies fondle mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundguy Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Tony i think its alot to do with how people see CZ as far as marketing. One of my favorite lines is if M. Jordon wore berkenstock sandals and won all his NBA titles people would be buying sandals and Nike would be just another shoe company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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