Nationals Stage 22 - Do you have to activate the moving hardcover?

[Strick]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

If you read through the thread, you will see that the USPSA rulebook defines a disappearing target as having been moving, and these targets don't move.

So MD's and RO's have been getting it wrong all these years?

No, you are being obtuse.

If they have been stating that a Max Trap (a target setup where the no-shoot drops and then returns in front of a shoot target) set up to 100% block a target is disappearing then why have they not gotten that wrong? Why is it applied differently to steel covered by a swinging hardcover that blocks 100% of the target at rest?

If being obtuse means that I don't understand different application of rules based on which match you are at or which MD set it up then you are right........I guess.

[MarkCO]

With a Max trap, the target is available at some point, as required by rule. In this particular set up, you have to shoot targets out of the way of subsequent targets to be able to see them. If you don't do it "fast" enough, you will never see the back target(s), which makes it an illegal stage. A target can not "disappear" if it was never visible.

That is provided that the back three poppers (50% of the calibration zone) are not visible from the sides of the shooting area. If they are, then the stage is fine, and legal.

[motosapiens]

With a Max trap, the target is available at some point, as required by rule. In this particular set up, you have to shoot targets out of the way of subsequent targets to be able to see them. If you don't do it "fast" enough, you will never see the back target(s), which makes it an illegal stage. A target can not "disappear" if it was never visible.

That is provided that the back three poppers (50% of the calibration zone) are not visible from the sides of the shooting area. If they are, then the stage is fine, and legal.

That is interesting reasoning, but it makes one wonder if you think that it's legal or not to simply have poppers stacked one behind the other (which is pretty common). If for some reason, you don't shoot the first one, the ones behind it will never be available, but no one has a problem with that. I don't see any real difference between activating a maxtrap vs activating a swinging hard-cover and also shooting down poppers in the way. Either way you have to do stuff to make the targets available, and they are only available for a limited time.

I think the max-trap analogy is a good one, and shows that the actual scoring target doesn't have to be 'moving' in order to be scored as a disappearing target.

Again, I'm waiting curiously to find out on monday what the real story is, but I'll bet 5 of Nik's deutschmarks that the lurking poppers will be scored as disappearing targets (NPM), and I also suspect they will be arranged so that a decent shooter can actually hit them quickly, or else no one will bother shooting them after activiation.

Edited September 16, 2014 by motosapiens

[MarkCO]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear. While I have seen them, and shot that type of array, when I design stages, I won't use them.

Granted, a MG stage, but the popper array on the right or the attached stage, USPs in front of full sized poppers for this very reason.

[Strick]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear. While I have seen them, and shot that type of array, when I design stages, I won't use them.

I think that is a liberal interpretation of the rule. At some point in the COF 50% will be visible unless the shooter decides not shoot the one in front.

[beltjones]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

Bro, actually read the rules sometime.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

[Strick]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

Bro, actually read the rules sometime.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does that apply to what I am saying? I didn't say anything about not activating the mover.

[MarkCO]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear. While I have seen them, and shot that type of array, when I design stages, I won't use them.

I think that is a liberal interpretation of the rule. At some point in the COF 50% will be visible unless the shooter decides not shoot the one in front.

Quite the opposite, it is the most conservative interpretation and the one taught to me in my CRO course. In fact an RMI has made me move a stacked popper or make the shooting area larger on one of my stages.

[beltjones]

With a Max trap, the target is available at some point, as required by rule. In this particular set up, you have to shoot targets out of the way of subsequent targets to be able to see them. If you don't do it "fast" enough, you will never see the back target(s), which makes it an illegal stage. A target can not "disappear" if it was never visible.

That is provided that the back three poppers (50% of the calibration zone) are not visible from the sides of the shooting area. If they are, then the stage is fine, and legal.

That is interesting reasoning, but it makes one wonder if you think that it's legal or not to simply have poppers stacked one behind the other (which is pretty common). If for some reason, you don't shoot the first one, the ones behind it will never be available, but no one has a problem with that. I don't see any real difference between activating a maxtrap vs activating a swinging hard-cover and also shooting down poppers in the way. Either way you have to do stuff to make the targets available, and they are only available for a limited time.

I think the max-trap analogy is a good one, and shows that the actual scoring target doesn't have to be 'moving' in order to be scored as a disappearing target.

Again, I'm waiting curiously to find out on monday what the real story is, but I'll bet 5 of Nik's deutschmarks that the lurking poppers will be scored as disappearing targets (NPM), and I also suspect they will be arranged so that a decent shooter can actually hit them quickly, or else no one will bother shooting them after activiation.

It's amazing that the actual rule has been posted many times throughout this thread and very few people have taken the time to read it.

There isn't some "interpretation" in the rule that is used for max traps that could also apply to stage 22. There is strict, specific verbiage that addresses max traps and makes them allowable as disappearing targets.

[motosapiens]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear.

Interesting. I've seen classifiers set up that way too. I'm curious if that is just your opinion, or if there is an official ruling or opinion that supports it. I don't see it in the rules. It seems pretty common to have to shoot down a popper to expose another popper, even in major events.

edit: I see you posted your source as an RMI in your CRO course. Thanks, I will pursue this question further later in the week.

Edited September 16, 2014 by motosapiens

[Strick]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear. While I have seen them, and shot that type of array, when I design stages, I won't use them.

I think that is a liberal interpretation of the rule. At some point in the COF 50% will be visible unless the shooter decides not shoot the one in front.

Quite the opposite, it is the most conservative interpretation and the one taught to me in my CRO course. In fact an RMI has made me move a stacked popper or make the shooting area larger on one of my stages.

4.3.1.5

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be

available at some point in the COF.

"At some point.." 50% will be available if the shooter scores a hit on the popper in front. If the shooter does not drop the popper in front then they have options under the rules to address that situation.

[Thomas H]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear. While I have seen them, and shot that type of array, when I design stages, I won't use them.

I think that is a liberal interpretation of the rule. At some point in the COF 50% will be visible unless the shooter decides not shoot the one in front.

Quite the opposite, it is the most conservative interpretation and the one taught to me in my CRO course. In fact an RMI has made me move a stacked popper or make the shooting area larger on one of my stages.

And yet, at the same time NROI has allowed stacked poppers (where the back poppers were not visible until the front poppers were shot down) numerous times in major matches.

Matter of fact, at the most recent A4 match there was a stage with four stacked poppers that were not visible anywhere else in the course of fire, and even better, were only available through a barrel and a donut hard cover, such that you could only see the calibration zone of the front popper when you first viewed them.

So---apparently within NROI, opinions vary. (Since our current DNROI was in charge of that match.)

[Strick]

It's amazing that the actual rule has been posted many times throughout this thread and very few people have taken the time to read it.

There isn't some "interpretation" in the rule that is used for max traps that could also apply to stage 22. There is strict, specific verbiage that addresses max traps and makes them allowable as disappearing targets.

What is that rule?

[beltjones]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

Bro, actually read the rules sometime.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does that apply to what I am saying? I didn't say anything about not activating the mover.

This is the exact rule that covers max traps. It says they are scored the same way as other moving targets. Thus, max traps can be disappearing, but other types of disappearing targets are not included in the rule. I think that's the justification they are using for saying the steel in this stage isn't disappearing.

I'm basing my judgement that they are disappearing on this thing called reality, which is to say, the stage description says they are disappearing, and the depiction shows hard cover that is placed in such a way as to completely conceal the targets at the end of its movement.

[motosapiens]

With a Max trap, the target is available at some point, as required by rule. In this particular set up, you have to shoot targets out of the way of subsequent targets to be able to see them. If you don't do it "fast" enough, you will never see the back target(s), which makes it an illegal stage. A target can not "disappear" if it was never visible.

That is provided that the back three poppers (50% of the calibration zone) are not visible from the sides of the shooting area. If they are, then the stage is fine, and legal.

That is interesting reasoning, but it makes one wonder if you think that it's legal or not to simply have poppers stacked one behind the other (which is pretty common). If for some reason, you don't shoot the first one, the ones behind it will never be available, but no one has a problem with that. I don't see any real difference between activating a maxtrap vs activating a swinging hard-cover and also shooting down poppers in the way. Either way you have to do stuff to make the targets available, and they are only available for a limited time.

I think the max-trap analogy is a good one, and shows that the actual scoring target doesn't have to be 'moving' in order to be scored as a disappearing target.

Again, I'm waiting curiously to find out on monday what the real story is, but I'll bet 5 of Nik's deutschmarks that the lurking poppers will be scored as disappearing targets (NPM), and I also suspect they will be arranged so that a decent shooter can actually hit them quickly, or else no one will bother shooting them after activiation.

It's amazing that the actual rule has been posted many times throughout this thread and very few people have taken the time to read it.

There isn't some "interpretation" in the rule that is used for max traps that could also apply to stage 22. There is strict, specific verbiage that addresses max traps and makes them allowable as disappearing targets.

Don't be amazed. I read it, I just disagree with your very literal interpretation of it.

The fact that we are even having this discussion seems to indicate that someone else pretty experienced also disagrees with you, or this stage design wouldn't exist.

[Ssanders224]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear.

Interesting. I've seen classifiers set up that way too. I'm curious if that is just your opinion, or if there is an official ruling or opinion that supports it. I don't see it in the rules. It seems pretty common to have to shoot down a popper to expose another popper, even in major events.

edit: I see you posted your source as an RMI in your CRO course. Thanks, I will pursue this question further later in the week.

Very common indeed.

How about stage 5 at the recent Area 4 Championship?

DNROI didn't seem to have a problem with it.

[motosapiens]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

Bro, actually read the rules sometime.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does that apply to what I am saying? I didn't say anything about not activating the mover.

This is the exact rule that covers max traps. It says they are scored the same way as other moving targets. Thus, max traps can be disappearing, but other types of disappearing targets are not included in the rule. I think that's the justification they are using for saying the steel in this stage isn't disappearing.

I'm basing my judgement that they are disappearing on this thing called reality, which is to say, the stage description says they are disappearing, and the depiction shows hard cover that is placed in such a way as to completely conceal the targets at the end of its movement.

Re the bolded type, while max-traps are specifically included, I don't think that prevents the use of other types of targets that hadn't been thought of and weren't specifically included.

No one of any authority in this situation has stated the steel is not disappearing, at least to my knowledge. I will be surprised if the steel is scored as non-disappearing, and I think a total poo-storm will ensue if that is the case.

Edited September 16, 2014 by motosapiens

[Strick]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

Bro, actually read the rules sometime.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does that apply to what I am saying? I didn't say anything about not activating the mover.

This is the exact rule that covers max traps. It says they are scored the same way as other moving targets. Thus, max traps can be disappearing, but other types of disappearing targets are not included in the rule. I think that's the justification they are using for saying the steel in this stage isn't disappearing.

I'm basing my judgement that they are disappearing on this thing called reality, which is to say, the stage description says they are disappearing, and the depiction shows hard cover that is placed in such a way as to completely conceal the targets at the end of its movement.

Firstly.....I agree with you that stage 22 should be deemed disappearing (as we are seeing it now), never said other wise.

Secondly, you are using a rule that is assessing a penalty when moving target, no-shoot, or other is not activated. That is not the same as the scoring of a target when it was activated.

[beltjones]

It's amazing that the actual rule has been posted many times throughout this thread and very few people have taken the time to read it.

There isn't some "interpretation" in the rule that is used for max traps that could also apply to stage 22. There is strict, specific verbiage that addresses max traps and makes them allowable as disappearing targets.

What is that rule?

I was responding to the idea that there is an interpretation of a rule that makes max traps legal, instead of actual text in the rule that says they are legal targets.

[beltjones]

Have any of the people that have been saying these aren't disappearing targets since they don't move ever shot a Max Trap? I have and I have shot more than a few that have the No-shoot cover the entire shoot target when at rest..............always, always, always was deemed as a disappearing target. Why is it now different?

Bro, actually read the rules sometime.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does that apply to what I am saying? I didn't say anything about not activating the mover.

This is the exact rule that covers max traps. It says they are scored the same way as other moving targets. Thus, max traps can be disappearing, but other types of disappearing targets are not included in the rule. I think that's the justification they are using for saying the steel in this stage isn't disappearing.

I'm basing my judgement that they are disappearing on this thing called reality, which is to say, the stage description says they are disappearing, and the depiction shows hard cover that is placed in such a way as to completely conceal the targets at the end of its movement.

Firstly.....I agree with you that stage 22 should be deemed disappearing (as we are seeing it now), never said other wise.

Secondly, you are using a rule that is assessing a penalty when moving target, no-shoot, or other is not activated. That is not the same as the scoring of a target when it was activated.

9.9.2 covers the scoring of disappearing targets.

9.9.3 includes max traps as moving targets.

Thus, max traps are scored as disappearing targets if they do in fact disappear.

[shred]

Super-easy for an Arb committee to say "the intent of the rules is that if a target is not available to be shot at the end of the COF, it is considered disappearing", since that clearly is the intent of the rules.

Stacked poppers aren't disappearing because they are available to be shot through an action on the shooters part ---shoot down the one in front.

Saying they are disappearing is like saying the targets from Port B on some hatch stage are all disappearing because the shooter never opened the port.

Same for the pull-movers at Double Tap this year-- I asked a NROI RM about them and even though they weren't visible at rest, he said the shooter could always pull the rope to make them appear again, so they weren't disappearing.

The shooter on the Nationals stage can't go downrange, reset the moving HC and get back into the shooting area without breaking a bunch of rules.

I predict an NROI ruling may appear just prior to the match.

[MarkCO]

Stacked poppers, if 50% of the calibration ring is not visible, are not legal in USPSA, the rulebook is pretty clear. While I have seen them, and shot that type of array, when I design stages, I won't use them.

I think that is a liberal interpretation of the rule. At some point in the COF 50% will be visible unless the shooter decides not shoot the one in front.

Quite the opposite, it is the most conservative interpretation and the one taught to me in my CRO course. In fact an RMI has made me move a stacked popper or make the shooting area larger on one of my stages.

4.3.1.5

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be

available at some point in the COF.

"At some point.." 50% will be available if the shooter scores a hit on the popper in front. If the shooter does not drop the popper in front then they have options under the rules to address that situation.

You are now adding an interpretation that is not in the rulebook. I don't see anywhere in the rules or course construction guidelines that changes the rules based on competitor interaction with the targets. I'm not going to bug Troy are Jay since they are at Nationals, but I will ask afterwards. It is probable that the collective RMI has discussed this and it is entirely possible that an opinion I believe to have been given to me was in error, or I took it wrong. I would not be willing to make a call at a match either way without a heck of a lot more review of the rules as well as checking with my RMI.

As far as an "Arb", there is no spirit of the rules available to them. They must cite supporting rule(s) in their decision(s).

Edited September 16, 2014 by MarkCO

[beltjones]

This is the exact rule that covers max traps. It says they are scored the same way as other moving targets. Thus, max traps can be disappearing, but other types of disappearing targets are not included in the rule. I think that's the justification they are using for saying the steel in this stage isn't disappearing.

I'm basing my judgement that they are disappearing on this thing called reality, which is to say, the stage description says they are disappearing, and the depiction shows hard cover that is placed in such a way as to completely conceal the targets at the end of its movement.

Re the bolded type, while max-traps are specifically included, I don't think that prevents the use of other types of targets that hadn't been thought of and weren't specifically included.

No one of any authority in this situation has stated the steel is not disappearing, at least to my knowledge. I will be surprised if the steel is scored as non-disappearing, and I think a total poo-storm will ensue if that is the case.

Oh I'm with you 100% on this. That's why I considered the steel in this stage to be disappearing from the start (that and the stage description).

I will be surprised by two things, and I'm sure you will agree with both. 1) that the steel will be scored as non-disappearing; and 2) that the stage won't be changed before the match.

[Poppa Bear]

The WSB will be very specific for this stage if it is laid out according to the current diagram. It will likely address all of these issues. More likely it willbe laid out such that these issues will addressed during construction.

[bikerburgess]

I think stacked poppers are just a series of appearing targets (2.1.8.5) says they must be obscured till activated it does not give any further guidance on what constitutes activation therefore shooting the popper ahead of it would be fine, the same way shooting a popper down activates any other appearing target (swinger, max trap, drop turner, etc).