What happened to S&W?

[Newguy]

I just returned to the US after living abroad for a few years. When I left S&W was a great company with excellent customer service. It was a leader in the field. I can't believe what has happened to the company since then.

About a month ago I bought an 9mm S&W M&P Pro. The gun was built in 2014 (as per the enclosed shell), which was confirmed when I spoke to S&W customer service.

When I stripped the gun down to add an Apex sear, I was surprised to find that it had the old sear block housing with the small spring and plunger. My understanding is that S&W went with the new sear block housing in 2010 because of trigger issues. Anyway, S&W customer service confirmed that the gun was built in 2014 but they claimed it had the new sear block housing. I explained that it had the old housing since the Apex sear spring wouldn't fit. I was willing to send pictures.

At first I thought it was a simple mistake in production. I asked for the new sear block housing and, of course, they wouldn't send it to me. I then said I would send in the gun under warranty to have the new sear block housing installed. They refused to replace the part, saying there wasn't a problem with the old sear block housing. Huh? They replaced the part in newer guns because there was a problem, and now they're claiming there isn't a problem. S&W is obviously cleaning out their inventory by dumping their old sear block housings into new guns.

This is not the old S&W I knew and respected--one that stood behind their product. Since a buyer won't know whether a new M&P will have the new sear housing, caveat emptor. Had I known S&W would be so disreputable I would have bought a Glock.

BTW, it is almost impossible to find the new sear block housing since all the parts houses are out of them.

[rack&roll]

Apex will modify your sear housing to fit the larger plunger and spring. (at least they used to)

[mcracco]

You are bashing S&W because an aftermarket part doesn't fit? Seriously?

My advice would be to talk to Apex as a starting point. It is highly unlikely S&W found a barrel of old sear blocks and decided to throw them into production for the fun of it. More likely you are trying to stuff the wrong spring into the correct housing.

[Vlad]

You are worrying to much, my older M&P has the small sear block, not really an issue. After 4-5 years that spring got weak enough to have some failures to reset, put in a new spring, kept working.

Keep in mind, their gun works fine with either sear spring, it only really becomes an issue with aftermarket parts AFAIK, so complaining that they don't support APEX is a bit odd.

[High Lord Gomer]

All 3 of my Pros had the small sear return spring and 2 of the 3 had fairly consistent problems right out of the box that were never fixed until I got the newer sear housing with the larger return spring.

I, too, would be royally pissed but that is not the kind of service I have gotten from them.

[matt7184]

You are bashing S&W because an aftermarket part doesn't fit? Seriously?

My advice would be to talk to Apex as a starting point. It is highly unlikely S&W found a barrel of old sear blocks and decided to throw them into production for the fun of it. More likely you are trying to stuff the wrong spring into the correct housing.

Actually none of the 2014 Pros are coming with the latest sear blocks or frames (and no, this is not a sample of one; I pulled 6 Pros from one stores latest batch alone). My last 2014 Pro also did not come with the latest slide release revision (but my handful of 2013 non-Pros did). With that said the guns still work fine.

My guess (and this is pure speculation) is S&W assembled quite a few Pro lowers many moons ago and they sat. Assembly was not completed until slides/uppers were installed and the guns were shipped (thus the 2014 shell casing dates).

I know this may be disappointing to OP, but if the gun has no issue, S&W has nothing to fix for you. This is not an isolated incident where they made a mistake.

With that said, if you do have an issue with an aftermarket non S&W sear, you can always order the newest universal manual safety SHB and slide release. I've never had trouble even with older Pros (with the small sear plunger) that have been used a bit with Apex parts so I never even bothered to upgrade the SHB. Keep in mind that the newer SHB with larger plunger will add to the trigger weight.

Edited August 21, 2014 by matt7184

[mcracco]

Good input, matt.

I installed an Apex Comp kit in a new Pro just a few weeks ago and sear spring fit fine. Sure looked like new production but since everything fit I didn't pause. But I just looked at the gun and it does have the older slide stop so maybe there is a mix.

[StealthyBlagga]

Before you badmouth S&W, please double check what you actually have.

The 1st generation sear blocks had a VERY small sear spring, only ~1/16" diameter - if you have this, I suggest you send it to S&W complaining of the dead trigger you are presumably suffering from, and ask for a replacement. The replacement would be a 2nd generation unit, which is identical except that the sear spring is larger (~1/8" diameter), and which is the standard for every 5" Pro I have seen in the last few years.

Trust me that you do NOT want the current, 3rd generation, sear block because (i) it will not fit the frame, and (ii) the trigger pull is atrocious.

If you really have a 1st generation sear block, shoot me a PM and I can either send you a small Apex sear spring (I think I still have one), or I can sell you one of my spare 2nd generation sear blocks for whatever the Brownells/Midway list price is + a few bucks for shipping.

Edited August 22, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[UFO]

I can understand your frustration with S&W. I purchased a "Performance Center 627-5". Paid full retail for it, you would expect it to be a top quality gun. I just had it worked on at a very well respected gunsmith and here's what he found. Forcing cone was off 20 degrees, barrel wasn't timed properly, probably because they had to do that to get it to line up. Head space was off several thousands. Crown looked like they had never cleaned it up after machining. These are the basic things that need to be right for the gun to shoot properly. He said everything should have been under warranty, but why would I want to send it to the same gunsmiths that did the shoddy work to begin with?

[Newguy]

Some people are missing the point. I'm not bashing S&W because an Apex part doesn't fit, I'm bashing it because they have put an old SHB design into a 2014 gun that was supposed to have the newest parts.

Mine is an old SHB that uses the tiny 1/16 diameter spring. Apex sent a sear spring for the newer sear block and it is too big. I know it seems hard to believe, but S&W is apparently dumping old SHB's into new guns.

I contacted Apex and they had several calls from people with new M&P's that had old style sear blocks.

My point is that when you buy a new product you expect it to have up to date parts.

[Vlad]

I don't really expect that. I can wish for it, but I think we all need to be realistic. It isn't as if there is a milspec for that gun, the gun is whatever SW wants to be. That sear block has worked just fine for me for quite a while and when it went bad, it took a $1 spring to make it run again.

I expect my gear to wear and break. I understand being miffed at S&W, and I suggest you calmly explain to them why you don't love them anymore, but realistically it is a working arrangement of parts. If it really bothers you, drill out the whole to the new spec, it isn't as if you aren't going to void the warranty by adding the Apex parts anyway.

[matt7184]

I agree with above. The gun works as designed by Smith and Wesson. If you want the latest parts (even though you do not need it), buy them yourself or next time before you purchase or accept delivery on the firearm, check it yourself.

[bountyhunter]

This is not the old S&W I knew and respected--one that stood behind their product. Since a buyer won't know whether a new M&P will have the new sear housing, caveat emptor. Had I known S&W would be so disreputable I would have bought a Glock.

Just my opinion.... the "old" SW that any given person knew depended on their particular experience. Don't get me wrong... their quality has declined severely, including the PC shop (I will never buy another SW product for reasons I have posted before) but the "good old days" were not that good out here in california where I became convinced over the last 20 years that SW intentionally shipped their reject guns out here to punish us for our state's stupid "approved" gun list. I used to go through checks on the new SW revos in the case at my local range and show the guy what was out of spec and why they needed to be sent back..... and he would say "Yea, we will" then sell the dog to some poor schmuck.

As for "customer service" I saw on some forums that people would get pre paid mailers and fast service, however the times I asked about returning guns it was at my expense (about $80) and time never specified. I started gunsmithing mainly because I didn't want to be the gun maker's victim anymore.

Anyway, the quality of the experience you get these days from any mass production gun maker is a crap shoot..... they throw a lifetime warranty on it and do away with final QA so you get to find the defects. SW is bad but I don't know if they are the worst... but then, the bar isn't set very high.

Edited August 22, 2014 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

I can understand your frustration with S&W. I purchased a "Performance Center 627-5". Paid full retail for it, you would expect it to be a top quality gun. I just had it worked on at a very well respected gunsmith and here's what he found. Forcing cone was off 20 degrees, barrel wasn't timed properly, probably because they had to do that to get it to line up. Head space was off several thousands. Crown looked like they had never cleaned it up after machining.

That was the gun that made me a lifetime EX customer of SW. A PC 627 that had a mess of defects that I had to fix. A $1200 new gun should not be a fixer upper.

[bountyhunter]

I agree with above. The gun works as designed by Smith and Wesson.

And most of the GM cars sold with the ignition switch that had the weak detent springs didn't kill their owners..... but when a manufacturer recognizes a problem in the design and implements a fix, they shouldn't continue to use up all the old junk just to save money. The fact they changed the design is proof that they knew their was a need to correct something....

[Jaxshooter]

The only thing I remember S&W sending prepaid shipping on were recalled guns. Obviously this is a CYA situation and they wanted to get them back to reduce their liability.

[matt7184]

I agree with above. The gun works as designed by Smith and Wesson.

And most of the GM cars sold with the ignition switch that had the weak detent springs didn't kill their owners..... but when a manufacturer recognizes a problem in the design and implements a fix, they shouldn't continue to use up all the old junk just to save money. The fact they changed the design is proof that they knew their was a need to correct something....

Or perhaps the design was changed to streamline production...because the safety models came later and it doesn't make sense making multiple style frames and sear housing blocks. This is not a safety issue. When your gun stops working as intended, send it to the manufacturer or perform required maintenance. Until then, there is no problem with the gun.

I just sent a pistol today to S&W...on their dime...for a warranty issue...if you actually have a legitimate issue involving the functioning of the firearm, they will fix it for the customer.

Edited August 23, 2014 by matt7184

[bountyhunter]

I just sent a pistol today to S&W...on their dime...for a warranty issue...if you actually have a legitimate issue involving the functioning of the firearm, they will fix it for the customer.

That was my point made earlier: I have read that statement on forums (they pay shipping) but the times I had warranty failures on new guns they refused. I assumed it was the california zip code but that's speculation. All I know is, they never offered to pay shipping and overnight FedEx s about $80+ from here. That single thing more than anything else really ticked me off. Edited August 23, 2014 by bountyhunter

[matt7184]

Do you have an example of an originally owned, non M&P issue they refused to provide a label for return on?

Edited August 23, 2014 by matt7184

[z40acp]

I agree with above. The gun works as designed by Smith and Wesson.

And most of the GM cars sold with the ignition switch that had the weak detent springs didn't kill their owners..... but when a manufacturer recognizes a problem in the design and implements a fix, they shouldn't continue to use up all the old junk just to save money. The fact they changed the design is proof that they knew their was a need to correct something....

Or perhaps the design was changed to streamline production...because the safety models came later and it doesn't make sense making multiple style frames and sear housing blocks. This is not a safety issue. When your gun stops working as intended, send it to the manufacturer or perform required maintenance. Until then, there is no problem with the gun.

I just sent a pistol today to S&W...on their dime...for a warranty issue...if you actually have a legitimate issue involving the functioning of the firearm, they will fix it for the customer.

But when a gun stops working, it is a safety issue. What does M&P stand for? They are marketing these for defense and their reliability. Not everyone just uses them in a game.

[Vlad]

In my experience the guns that stop working for this reasons are the ones modified with aftermarket parts. Also, given enough use every gun stops working, including all military an police guns. Springs are indeed wear parts last I checked.

[Nik Habicht]

In my experience the guns that stop working for this reasons are the ones modified with aftermarket parts. Also, given enough use every gun stops working, including all military an police guns. Springs are indeed wear parts last I checked.

Which is why police departments generally have armorers on staff to deal with the maintenance....

[matt7184]

I agree with above. The gun works as designed by Smith and Wesson.

And most of the GM cars sold with the ignition switch that had the weak detent springs didn't kill their owners..... but when a manufacturer recognizes a problem in the design and implements a fix, they shouldn't continue to use up all the old junk just to save money. The fact they changed the design is proof that they knew their was a need to correct something....

Or perhaps the design was changed to streamline production...because the safety models came later and it doesn't make sense making multiple style frames and sear housing blocks. This is not a safety issue. When your gun stops working as intended, send it to the manufacturer or perform required maintenance. Until then, there is no problem with the gun.

I just sent a pistol today to S&W...on their dime...for a warranty issue...if you actually have a legitimate issue involving the functioning of the firearm, they will fix it for the customer.

But when a gun stops working, it is a safety issue. What does M&P stand for? They are marketing these for defense and their reliability. Not everyone just uses them in a game.

Any mechanical device can stop working... we could play the safety issue all day with cars, planes, boats, etc. Firearms are mechanical objects which can fail. Learn to deal with it and maintain your equipment.

Edited August 23, 2014 by matt7184

[bountyhunter]

Do you have an example of an originally owned, non M&P issue they refused to provide a label for return on?

Not an MP, it was new revolvers that had gross defects. Factoring in the cost of shipping and time.... and the fact it was going back to the same fools who screwed it up in the first place, I ended up doing the work myself. Point is that the attitude of "Send the new gun back at your cost and we'll look at it when we get time" does not impress me on a brand new item.

My point was they have NEVER offered pre paid shipping to me on ANYTHING. Maybe it's a California thing.

Edited August 23, 2014 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

I agree with above. The gun works as designed by Smith and Wesson.

And most of the GM cars sold with the ignition switch that had the weak detent springs didn't kill their owners..... but when a manufacturer recognizes a problem in the design and implements a fix, they shouldn't continue to use up all the old junk just to save money. The fact they changed the design is proof that they knew their was a need to correct something....

Or perhaps the design was changed to streamline production...because the safety models came later and it doesn't make sense making multiple style frames and sear housing blocks. This is not a safety issue. When your gun stops working as intended, send it to the manufacturer or perform required maintenance. Until then, there is no problem with the gun.

I just sent a pistol today to S&W...on their dime...for a warranty issue...if you actually have a legitimate issue involving the functioning of the firearm, they will fix it for the customer.

But when a gun stops working, it is a safety issue. What does M&P stand for? They are marketing these for defense and their reliability. Not everyone just uses them in a game.

Any mechanical device can stop working... we could play the safety issue all day with cars, planes, boats, etc. Firearms are mechanical objects which can fail. Learn to deal with it and maintain your equipment.

I have never griped about something that "failed" because parts do fail, especially these days when parts have basically zero quality control. My gripe is when brand new guns have gross defects and get shipped anyway. IMHO, it's inexcusable when a brand new PC gun (or any new gun) has defects that a blind man could spot.