competition vs working ar

[HRider]

While I have heard several horror stories about AR10s and reliability, my Armalite has been very reliable. I have put several thousand rounds through it with two malfunctions (not counting the slam fire issue that I caused by removing the firing pin spring), one was a case that bounced back into the ejection port while shooting out of a window in the dwarf house at Steel City, the other was a stove pipe type malfunction with Privi 147 ball. I believe that it short stroked and caused this (it didn't pick up a fresh round and there was a spent case sticking out of the ejection port). I have fired hundreds more rounds from the same lot without any other problems. While I have not shot my M1A nearly as much, it has ran 100% for me.

My AR10 is my favorite rifle, I suppose if I had to carry one to work every day, it would depend on the ranges that I was most likely to be working around as to which rifle/carbine that I chose for the task.

Hurley

[Finbox]

Ws

Edited August 17, 2014 by Finbox

[Alaskapopo]

Range Report on new patrol rifle build 8-24-14

We I just put this rifle together. The parts are listed in the picture. I have been using a SCAR 17 as a patrol rifle for a few years now and on gun call about 4 months back I could not help but think how heavy that gun was and I have decided to go back to 5.56 and having something lighter. I also wanted to have something that was similar in set up to my three gun rifles that I shoot all the time in competition so my muscle memory would stay the same.
I took the gun out today and sighted it in with both optics. I sighted the scope in at 100 yards and the off set red dot at 25 yards. The gun did not shoot as accurately as I would have liked but this is a pencil barrel so what can I expect. It still shot within reasonable levels for the mission of this gun. I wish I had a scale to weight it but the rifle feels like it comes in at around 8 pounds unloaded. It handled nicely. I shot a rifle qualification with it and scored 149 out of 150.

[armydad]

WGJ3 basically nails it. Trigger pull is also an important factor. For defense/duty, trigger pull needs to be intentional. Folks with too light of a trigger pull may find themselves dropping hammer under stress when they may not have meant to.

[openclassterror]

I agree with a lot of the sentiment here, but I smirk a little when I see "reliable" listed as one of the working rifle features. As if that isn't important in a match gun. I have run at least 5,000 rounds through my 3-gun rifle since the last failure. I run an LMOS from JP, with a Hybrid gas system of my own design. I clean it maybe once every 500+ rounds, sometimes 1,000 if I am in a busy stretch. Finicky rifles have no place anywhere, work or play. I am no more happy with a malf on my match gun than I would be with a self-defense rifle. The difference is in the consequences of said malfunction (I would be much more unhappy with the consequences of a failure on my working rifle.)

[co-exprs]

My special ops buddy says his competition rifles are more reliable than his "work" guns. No doubt due to the quality of the build and components.

I don't work with my rifles and hope I never have to. I do have a rifle I've set up for more defensive applications though. The only difference is that it's a JP15 with a set of real, honest to god irons and I added a flashlight mount. I also swapped the factory break for one that is better at squelching flash and it does have LMOS and has been extremely reliable. My daughter uses it for matches and it will probably be in her hope chest when she leaves some day (along with a Glock and a 12g).

Edited August 27, 2014 by co-exprs

[ericm]

...once upon a time, at band camp.....

....

....

....

.......I (and my friends) bought 1917 Eddystone .30-06 rifles in perfect working order from my band director for $35 each.

They were a little scuffed on the butt plates, but otherwise in great shape.

He was selling them all to buy fiberglass (light) fake rifles for the honor guard and drill team girls....

Where he or the high school got them is unknown......rumor was they had been demilled, but they weren't

......perhaps the learned persons here can tell me: were these working guns or competition guns????

ericm

[Stlhead]

Wait, I see what you did there. If given a choice I would always take a working gun, over a Non-working (non-functional) one. But a 35$ bolt gun with good irons and a stock with a little history on it makes for a good story. Do you still have it?

[kurtm]

Ahh the bygone era of working girls with working work rifles...America was never again so great..HELL yes he still has it!

[ericm]

...it will never be flipped into the air while marching down a paved street again, I can tell you that....

.....does this mean it is no longer a competition rifle???

ericm

[Bryan 45]

Ah, the M1917.... Only more suitable bolt gun ever made was the No 4.

[Stlhead]

Is a parade rifle considered work or competition? And what rifle would fill that duty today if any marching band leader had the stones to include a color guard with rifles? I would love to see kids marching down the street twirling rifles.

[JeremyV]

I think for me one important thing for a working gun vs a competition gun would depend on my work. I think sights and optics would be the main difference for me. If you work where its raining and muddy all the time then having iron sights as a backup would be smart where as a competition gun you might run a scope and red dot.

Barrel length also plays a part. I was running a 14.5 effective barrel length with brake built in to come to 16.5" and it was too short for three gun but would be very nice in tight areas. to hold my gun correctly my hand was almost touching the brake and I like my fingers so got the 18" and it is much better for that.

I don't subscribe to the Light trigger pull for competition and heavy for real life. with proper training your finger is not on the trigger till you are ready to fire. I have actually been in a real life situation where I had to use my rife to defend myself and others and the gun only goes off when you pull the trigger.

[HardChrome]

The only difference i could see is that people try and make their competition guns as light as possible with aluminium and carbon fiber.

[TonytheTiger]

At the risk of earning some sad face stickers I'm gonna come out and say it. While not suited for competition (yes, I've tried) I still think the ak47/74 rifles are viable working guns. With the aftermarket showing more support now the ergonomic oddities can be somewhat negated, at least I don't think they're weirder to use than a SCAR. And I've personally seen less malfunctions with aks than ars but I probably shouldn't open that can of worms. And the accuracy is not as terrible as some would have you believe, my ak74 consistently shoots 2 moa eating Hornady ammo and hits full sized silhouettes at 450 yards no problem. I've seen plenty of m4 clones that can't say the same. That said, I still prefer my ar for anything short of being my designated shtf gun.

[Alaskapopo]

Several problems with AK's as working guns. Number one is appropriate duty ammunition. There are some choices from Hornady but the field is very dry. Accuracy is barely acceptable. Some exceptions exist like your gun but AK's vary from being like a poor AR to being minute of basket ball. They are more difficult to mount optics and lights too. The safety absolutely sucks for quick manipulation. As for reliability AR's are more than reliable enough so long as you use some lube on them.
Pat

[TonytheTiger]

All valid points, like I said Hornady ammo is a must, all ak's I've dealt have been unusually accurate and Midwest Industries has helped out quite a bit with accessory and optic mounting. Still not even a little bit modular and the safety will always suck. But you still won't change my mind, it's an effective gun.

[1911vm]

So after starting this thread and reading all the answer I think my answer has been answered so thank you much to all. I also came to realization that majority of shooters will not do much better with a competition rifle for most matches. At least not enough to win LOL. I have a14.5 noveski nsr which I consider a working ar, that I have been driving for almost a year. Out to about 200 I do not see a lot of difference between it and my 3gun 18in. I will just consider all the games as practice. Thanks again.

[TonytheTiger]

Ah, the M1917.... Only more suitable bolt gun ever made was the No 4.

Ooh I smell an off topic argument brewing! My No.4 takes second place to my Swiss K31 everyday of the week and twice on sundays in my bolt gun category. Edited September 7, 2014 by TonytheTiger

[Alaskapopo]

The AK is an effective gun I have owned them they are my second favorite rifle after the AR series. Just don't see them as well adapted to LEO uses. But to each his own. Take care.

Pat

[WeDefy]

My home/comp gun is a 16" M&P with a scout light, Trijicon Accupoint 1-4, and 13" VTAC handguard, FSC 5.56 comp- stock outside of that.

Work gun is an M4A1 with Giesle trigger. Both uppers have an Eotech, I have one flip 3x that I switch between them, both have an LA5 and an Insight Light,, and both have a Surefire flashhider. 10.3" upper always has the surefire suppressor on it and a vertical foregrip due to hand space issues. 10.3 has a Daniel Defense 9" handguard, 14.5" upper has a 13" Troy handguard.

I also have a Magpul BAD lever and VTAC sling on both guns.

To comment on the SCAR- it's a pretty widely accepted weapon in the SOF world, and not much different than an M4 to run. Having the reciprocating charging handle can be a good thing. You can lock the bolt back with one hand (without a BAD lever) and you can use it as a forward assist. I used one for a whole deployment and loved it. They are 1.5 MOA guns easy.

I don't see MIL/LE ever using an AK/GALIL type weapon due to the safety alone, it can't be manipulated easily.

Edited September 16, 2014 by WeDefy