56hawk Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I've been to a couple clubs where they don't allow any ammo in the safe area. Can they do this? Seems to me that the rules are pretty specific about ammo being allowed in the safe area: 10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the ammunition, loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parallax3D Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Nothing wrong with being overly cautious.Their club, their rules, even if they are stricter than USPSA's rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Nothing wrong with being overly cautious. Their club, their rules, even if they are stricter than USPSA's rules. Unfortunately not if it applies during uspsa matches at their range. Can't have any rules beyond uspsa. My home club lost their affiliation after adding a no muzzle over the berm rule. Without an exemption, club affiliation was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 They can have stricter rules. They just have to be treated as suggestions. They cannot issue a DQ for breaking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 3.3 Applicability of Rules: USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'll bet you that if REALLY enforced 3.3 you'd have a heck of a lot fewer USPSA clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 What other "local" rules are USPSA shooters supposed to tolerate in the name of keeping USPSA clubs alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I dunno, draw your own limit, but are you seriously suggesting you would rather not have a local club to shoot at then bother to leave your ammo a few feet behind when using the safe table? If thats the case, well, I guess you are right, go right ahead and do that. Its not as if USPSA actually provides any sort of help to MDs to convince local clubs to play by USPSA's rules, you know? As someone who's been doing the MD thing for 8-10 years or so and who has to deal with club BoD's multiple times of year, I don't recall a SINGLE instance in which USPSA actually tried to help. Lucky for us, we don't have to use any special local rules, so it isn't an issue, but if the club BoD suddenly decided that shooters couldn't have ammo on their body at the safe table are you suggesting I should just close down the match and tell people to take a long hike off a short pier? Oh wait, my local club does have a rule, they require us to pick up our live rounds so the lawnmower dude doesn't have surprises. Thats not in the USPSA rule book, quick ... someone come yank our affiliation. Please, do it, I need an excuse to stop dealing with this crap. Edited June 21, 2014 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I agree there should be no local rules imposed on a match. But as local rules go this one has very little impact on our game. I personally never go to a safety area with anything but my gun. I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I agree there should be no local rules imposed on a match. But as local rules go this one has very little impact on our game. I personally never go to a safety area with anything but my gun. I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. Not a DQ if the loaded mags are only moved around within their bag...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff? Edited June 21, 2014 by driver8M3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it? Section and area folks were heavily involved in trying to work out a solution. In the end the club lost. I'd have quit it entirely over this, but the next closest range is an additional hour away. They have a monthly action pistol uspsa style match, but the attendance is way down. There are plenty of other places to shoot uspsa in our area. It's really sad because it is a great range, and it didn't need to go down the way it did. Since then the range bod has had some more shooter friendly folks elected, and we are hopeful the situation can be reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I agree there should be no local rules imposed on a match. But as local rules go this one has very little impact on our game. I personally never go to a safety area with anything but my gun. I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. Not a DQ if the loaded mags are only moved around within their bag...... disagree that is handling ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves into match staff? don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff? don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different. oh, that's not quite the same thing you said here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196179&p=2175449 First, The guys I shoot with are mostly RO's as well. As soon as we heard the tear of velcro somebody would have stopped him from taking it off. Or at least tried to. If we didn't succeed in stopping him we would certainly compel him to report himself to match staff. Edited June 21, 2014 by driver8M3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire_Cat Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it? Section and area folks were heavily involved in trying to work out a solution. In the end the club lost. I'd have quit it entirely over this, but the next closest range is an additional hour away. They have a monthly action pistol uspsa style match, but the attendance is way down. There are plenty of other places to shoot uspsa in our area. It's really sad because it is a great range, and it didn't need to go down the way it did. Since then the range bod has had some more shooter friendly folks elected, and we are hopeful the situation can be reversed. I'm a member of Tri-County. I have to wonder if we would have had more competition shooting friendly folks elected if they would have changed the voting process earlier than they did (i.e. mail vs. the old system where barely few people would show up to vote). Sorry for thread hi-jack. IDPA competition and Law Enforcement range sessions are going on all the time at Tri-County. Guess how they reload a handgun?!?!? /end rant. Edited June 21, 2014 by Cheshire_Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff? don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different. oh, that's not quite the same thing you said here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196179&p=2175449 First, The guys I shoot with are mostly RO's as well. As soon as we heard the tear of velcro somebody would have stopped him from taking it off. Or at least tried to. If we didn't succeed in stopping him we would certainly compel him to report himself to match staff. so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff? don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different. oh, that's not quite the same thing you said here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196179&p=2175449 First, The guys I shoot with are mostly RO's as well. As soon as we heard the tear of velcro somebody would have stopped him from taking it off. Or at least tried to. If we didn't succeed in stopping him we would certainly compel him to report himself to match staff. so... by telling him it was wrong didn't I compel him to do something? I put the onus on him. He either ignored it or turned himself in. I can't make anyone do anything as a shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. what happened after you compelled these guys to turn themselves in to match staff? don't know if they turned themselves in or not but I told them they were not allowed to handle ammo in a safety area. I did my part as I was just a shooter at the match. Had I been on staff at a match it would have been different. oh, that's not quite the same thing you said here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196179&p=2175449 First, The guys I shoot with are mostly RO's as well. As soon as we heard the tear of velcro somebody would have stopped him from taking it off. Or at least tried to. If we didn't succeed in stopping him we would certainly compel him to report himself to match staff. so... by telling him it was wrong didn't I compel him to do something? I put the onus on him. He either ignored it or turned himself in. I can't make anyone do anything as a shooter. no. compel does not mean discuss, it means force. so in the prior thread you said you would have forced the shooter to turn himself in to match staff. in this thread you said you merely mentioned to the shooter that he broke a rule. i'm simply pointing out the inconsistency of what you said you would do in a hypothetical situation, and what you actually did do in a real situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it? When I have seen this it is usually enforced by an idiot old guy. He is making the calls for the club so he wakes up early to be the sergeant of arms for the club. By the time this happens its a no win for competition. I figure everybody that casually shoots at the club points their muzzle over the berm all day. The average club member is way way less safe than a competition shooter but when those club relics set their sights on competition, watch out. The best way to control it is get elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Don't forget that the hosting property owner can have rules beyond those of USPSA. If you lost club affiliation over that, I have to wonder what your section and area director are thinking. Things like muzzle over the berm are actually kinda even hard to enforce, but leaving your ammo 5ft behind is not some massive hardship, is it? When I have seen this it is usually enforced by an idiot old guy. He is making the calls for the club so he wakes up early to be the sergeant of arms for the club. By the time this happens its a no win for competition. I figure everybody that casually shoots at the club points their muzzle over the berm all day. The average club member is way way less safe than a competition shooter but when those club relics set their sights on competition, watch out. The best way to control it is get elected. Yep, thats how that works. Problems is that very often he is retired and has time to run for the BoD where most of us "action shooters" have jobs and other stuff. At one of the clubs, we managed to get action shooters on the board (including the President) but it is an insane work load on that man. Even if you find that man, he is likely to be busy and have less time to campaign and shake hands. At the club I run my match the board is pretty much entrenched and very hard to shift or unelect. So far I've been able to bring them back into orbit whenever their engines sputter and drift into deep space, the few of us running action pistol stuff fight this every year, but one day we'll lose and get a big does of crazy. My only hope is that they are all quite old and well .. time may work in my favor here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I dunno, draw your own limit, but are you seriously suggesting you would rather not have a local club to shoot at then bother to leave your ammo a few feet behind when using the safe table? If thats the case, well, I guess you are right, go right ahead and do that. Its not as if USPSA actually provides any sort of help to MDs to convince local clubs to play by USPSA's rules, you know? As someone who's been doing the MD thing for 8-10 years or so and who has to deal with club BoD's multiple times of year, I don't recall a SINGLE instance in which USPSA actually tried to help. Lucky for us, we don't have to use any special local rules, so it isn't an issue, but if the club BoD suddenly decided that shooters couldn't have ammo on their body at the safe table are you suggesting I should just close down the match and tell people to take a long hike off a short pier? Oh wait, my local club does have a rule, they require us to pick up our live rounds so the lawnmower dude doesn't have surprises. Thats not in the USPSA rule book, quick ... someone come yank our affiliation. Please, do it, I need an excuse to stop dealing with this crap. He is saying you WON"T have a choice. USPSA will pull you affiliation. It has been done more than once. You can't have special rules that non-local shooters don't know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 See 3.3 relative to "local" rules. /hijack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I agree there should be no local rules imposed on a match. But as local rules go this one has very little impact on our game. I personally never go to a safety area with anything but my gun. I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ. Not a DQ if the loaded mags are only moved around within their bag...... disagree that is handling ammo Of course you disagree..... Care to read the rule again? 10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the ammunition, loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area. No DQ per the underlines language in blue until the mag or speed loader comes out of their pocket, bag, or other retaining or storage device. It's the old two steps to the gun rule -- first you need to remove it, and that's the point where you're disqualified; second you need to get it into the gun. As long as it stays within the range bag, it's fine. The BOD specifically wrote the rule in this manner so someone could go digging through their bag for tools or parts, as long as they didn't remove mags or speed loaders. And the competitor can stack boxes of ammo on the safe table all day long -- but he should take care not to have one break open and spill loose ammo all over the place.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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