Iowashooter Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) When you had the malfunction did the bolt stay to the rear or did it close with a shell on the carrier. Edited March 13, 2015 by Iowashooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 You'd think I'd look at stuff like that with all the details in my forum, but to be honest I had to really try and remember. I'm pretty sure the bolt was open but I'm not positive. I also believe the shell may not have been back quite far enough onto the lifter. I thought I'd slightly polished both lifter's sharp edges but to be honest haven't been in to mood to troubleshoot. I'm sure it will nag on me and I'll look into it soon. As far as the conversation about the shell stop double springs thingy. I'm still running both, but there seems to be some confusion being spread on the shell stop/springs and loading the tube. Again, I've only worked on 2 shotguns (extensively) ever, the shell stop assy w/bolt forward (closed) keeps more tension to keep front shell stop portion into the chamber and behind the live shell in the tube (hence why unloading the tube w/bolt closed requires you to push quite hard on the shell stop to unload the gun versus when you attempt same task w/bolt pulled part/full back). When the bolt comes almost all the way rearward is likely when the bolt allows the rear portion of shell stop to swing into center of gun and conversely swings the front shell stop portion to the side & away from the live round in tube and feed back onto lifter. I also don't understand how the 2 springs or zero springs should change the tension of loading the shells into the tube. I'm so confident, that I won't even attempt to take springs out to test it. Triangle had ideas about the 2 springs, but I forget what it did going to one. I know you need to be careful, if you take a heat treated flat, thin steel and bend it to much or make cuts that allow it to bend easier this could work well under normal fire, but if you go to far, and you repeatedly unload the shell tube with bolt closed by pushing on the front shell stop to unload the chamber could cause it to bend instead of spring back. Remember what happens to a weak magazine spring if you try to stretch it! It can help, but know what your doing and don't do to much is always the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic2377 Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I just picked up a Versamax, albeit the 26" Sportsman model. I got a good deal on it and will be modding it for 3 gun. I have also found it to be a b**** to load... thanks to all who have posted their feed latch mods. I don't much to offer for troubleshooting as I just got it but the wealth of information here is amazing. Oh, and the inside of my barrel looked like crap right out of the box, definitely test-fired at this factory. Streaks down the forcing cone all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Don't be scared to hone the forcing cone after getting it cleaned real well. It really helps and I have started to just do it on all VMs while fixing them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjman15 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Don't be scared to hone the forcing cone after getting it cleaned real well. It really helps and I have started to just do it on all VMs while fixing them up. Are you using the scotchbrite method? Was considering doing this but wasn't sure if it would mess up the gas ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Don't be scared to hone the forcing cone after getting it cleaned real well. It really helps and I have started to just do it on all VMs while fixing them up. Are you using the scotchbrite method? Was considering doing this but wasn't sure if it would mess up the gas ports. No, I use the Flex-hone. I actually have three grits and their oil and I get after it pretty good. Any gunsmith who specializes in shotguns should be able to do it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjman15 Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Mark, thanks. I've been looking a little more into this and came across "burnishing" aswell, with 0000 steel wool. Supposidly is removes the surface scratches from polishing and improves patterning. By chance have you done this with any v-max's? Edited March 20, 2015 by jjman15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 About 20 so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 OK versa experts, I think I have a slight nagging issue on my versa comp model. I have 2 factory trigger assy's and each has an extended lifter done by C-Rums. I'm having a jam during cycling where the shell comes back onto the lifter but doesn't get kicked upward to feed and the bolt is open during firing. I thought is was the other assy since I had 3 in a few hundred rounds and swapped back to the orig and still had one today out of 50 rds. The one today was with some low recoil Winchester stuff and I distinctly remember the bolt being open and either pulling the bolt a hair or barely pushing up on the lifter made it kick into battery. It seems as if it's the point right when the bolt comes back and the lifter should flop new shell upward is the catch point. Not sure if the shell tube spring is a little weak and not throwing the shell hard enough rearward or what. I'm still running the rem factory spring. I've had this a few more times on one trigger assy vs the other and using normal power loads, but concerned I've got something a little fickle. Ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriswakey Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Strange you should mention this as I have been having the same fault occur. Only thing I have done to mine mods wise is to install the Remington factory tactical/competition lifter. Mine is the same as yours bolt staying open and pulling it rearward slightly or touching the lifter pops it back into battery and ok from there. Cost me a couple of stages at the weekend so I would be very interested in any info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhill Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Ive had the same problem a few times. I put in a new magazine spring and polished the the tail of the shell release. There is a sharp edge on the tail that the rim of the shell can catch on. I havent had a problem since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 I thought I saw a post by Mark at Carbon Arms in another post about the bolt catching if you cycle it forward and catches the lifter relation and something about a set screw or lifter height? I'll look at the shell release, but It's pretty smoothed over. When you say the tail of the shell release, you mean the rearward portion that doesn't sit behind/against the shell in tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) Tks Dhill and all for inputs. I talked w/Steve at Rose Action Sports today and while on phone looked at my spring length past the end of the Carbon Arms 2 rd ext and spring was only 10 inches past the end. Maybe early on when was so tough to load this gun due to crappy shell stop I must have cut I down to maybe 12 inches and after use it's mushed down from use to 10 now. Steve said this is likely my issue. Gonna order a few factory springs and try em at 15-16 inches and see if that helps. Maybe later I'll go to a stiffer Nordic. I can slowly cycle the bolt w/gun empty and make the bolt lock open and the lifter just about to lift catch point just like the jam I've been having during live fire, but I have to really go slow and easy to make it happen, which I know the gun cycles much harder under fire. Maybe the shell is not coming back far or hard enough due to weak spring to always move the rear of shell stop assy toward the sidewall out of the way. I'll report back on progress in a few weeks. I haven't really to notice as to if the jam happens with full or almost empty tube either which is my bad. Edited April 2, 2015 by AirForce2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) If you'd like to have a large button on "both sides" of you versa max or benelli safety instead of just the safety off side, check out/call MOA Precision. They have a double sided one for the Stoeger 3000, but I talked with them today and they said (plus on their facebook page) put in the "comments" section you want one for benelli or versa and they can get you one. This can give you the same assurance to "enable" the safety upon dumping the gun if you ask me I like the addition. Mines on order. PS I also held my first non 3 gun model of the stoeger 3000 today and I haven't shot one, but again I can see why the interest is "extremely" high on a lightweight, skinny, semi auto shotgun, and less that $550 bucks. Wish I'd have known about it before that Mossterd hit my hands last year. Edited April 7, 2015 by AirForce2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsampson Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 For folks having the issue where the round feeds into the receiver and onto the lifter, but does not get brought up into the action. Two easy and cheap things. First, replace your stock mag tube spring with a Nordic. If you have and that one is failing, replace it every few months. What is happening is the shell is not going back into the receiver with enough force to cause the bolt release to allow the action to fully cycle. This spring needs to be healthy for the gun to cycle consistsntly. Also, if you are practicing loading allot, you will wear it out faster. I keep two or three in my bag so I am never short at a major match. Second, not as critical, get an extra mag tube follower and put it on the top of the spring inside the tube. What this does is gives the spring good surfaces on both ends so it doesn't bind up as it rotates while shells are fed in, or are cycled out. Both are cheap and easy fixes. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I thought I saw a post by Mark at Carbon Arms in another post about the bolt catching if you cycle it forward and catches the lifter relation and something about a set screw or lifter height? I'll look at the shell release, but It's pretty smoothed over. When you say the tail of the shell release, you mean the rearward portion that doesn't sit behind/against the shell in tube? Yes, it was actually James Darst who showed me the mod, and it fixes several issues. Some VMs have the lifter hanging too far down, grinding or polishing the lifter is a bandaid that works, but moving the lifter to the correct geometry fixes this and prevents wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Gene Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 After long deliberations, kicking around the three options of 1. trying to modify my SLP (really doesn't seem like it was worth putting the time and money into this platform), 2. Getting an M2 and sending it to Taran (my Super Black Eagle has a lot more recoil than my SLP or Beretta 392) and 3. Getting a 3000 from MOA Precision (haven't returned email, and probably very similar to the M2 anyway), I read this thread and ordered a Versa Max from Benny. Best thing I ever did as a cowboy shooter was to send my '97 into a great smith and have it gone through (it was one of the last ones done by Miss Kitty at Coyote Cap Gunworks). I could do all my own work on my revolvers, my rifle was sometimes questionable (has its idiosyncrasies), BUT, my shotgun never failed me. The best way to make up time was on transitions and the shotgun. I see that as being the same situation in this game. I can't wait. WG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 My sons VM Tactical suffered the same intermittent bolt failure to close. Mag spring was not the issue. Like others report, the bolt hung up as it tried to cam the carrier upwards, and a little bump of the charging handle forwards would close the bolt and feed the round. I fixed this problem by changing the action spring. At the same time I also changed out the hammer, link and cam pin for Benelli parts, so these parts could also have been contributing (though I am not sure how). At any rate, his gun has run flawlessly ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 Which spring is the action spring and does what? I put in a brand new Nordic tube spring today at 14 inches past and this has much more spring pressure and easily enough and makes loading the tube much harder now (great). During hand cycling w/dummy loads, I can still feel the same exact problem area after I load the chamber, pull trigger and cycle the bolt and ride it forward, the exact same jam happens that I seem to get live fire. The shell kicks onto the lifter (all the way back and clears tube) and it catches right as the lifter is going to start upward to feed new shell towards the chamber. It seems each time I have this, I can push the bolt release button in and it releases & finishes cycling or I can push up on bottom of lifter. This is great, multiple areas and potential fixes to the problem. I've heard of several ideas that people have claimed fixed this: 1)tube spring to weak (I'm confident this is not my issue) 2)lifter height issue (I have no idea how to fix or determine this) 3)action spring (I don't get it) 4)double springs under shell latch assy remove the smaller one I see on the bolt release side of the trigger assy there is a small leg just beside the lifter and is appx 1/4 inch tall by appx 3/4 inc long and appx 1 cm thick that seems to sit against a small shallow ledge on the rear of the portion of the shell stop assy, this small sharp ledge is top to bottom and only 1 mm and "appears" to be cut for a purpose. I wonder if this is a problem area. There is only a small sharp ledge so I assume you need it there so the bolt will lock open if the rear shell stop is sticking inward. Gosh dang I'm so pissed at shotgun brands right now, jeeez you'd think if your copying another companies design that works, aaaah never mind. :angry2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 ok, after sleeping on this, I've attached some pics for the experts out there to tell me your thoughts. It is not the shell tube spring and again this morning with dummy loads the catch area is just as the bolt is supposed to start forward to load a shell from the lifter (the point where the bolt goes forward and this should kick the lifer upwards is the hang area. Realize this is under slow hand cycling, but always finishes if I push in the bolt release button. This leads me to think the "rear" portion of the shell stop assy is either not quite getting out of the way, not going into the side of the receiver, has a slight ledge catching or something similar to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicAJ Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Does anybody know if Remington sells the competition model stock (with the the molded-in QD sling mount)? Looking to put one on my VM Tactical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) Which spring is the action spring and does what?... It is the spring that goes in the stock, and which provides the force that propels the bolt forwards (sometimes referred to as the recoil spring). Remington's part number is F401305. It is available from Brownells for $7 HERE. Edited April 11, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iowashooter Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 That is the malfunction I had prior to pulling out the inner spring behind the shell latch. Try taking it out and I think it will solve your issue. If not it take 2 minutes to put it back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 Tks guys, I'm gonna try removing one of the smaller inner springs behind the shell stop. It feels like there is a metal to metal section that is not quite rounded off as it hangs related to the shell stop. After it ejects a round, I'm gonna try and cycle it while holding in the bolt release button in and see if I can narrow it down. I really don't think the facotory shell tube spring stuck out that far past the end of the carbon arms extension either. I looked and the spring ends are to "factory" which means I didn't cut it. Maybe the factory spring wasn't that long from the start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirForce2 Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 I polished a few areas on the bolt that activate the lifter and also removed a little meat on the rear most flat bottom of the shell stop just in case the rear of shell stop was bottoming out on the receiver & removed the smaller of the 2 inner springs behind the shell stop assy last night and the cycling by hand is smoother right at the catch point that gave me issues. Also polished areas on/around rear of shell stop. Being the distrusting sort since I did multiple things, this morning I put the 2nd inner spring back in the gun and "instantly" the cycling went back to catching stiff at the point the bolt lifts/flips the lifte upward. It seems for now this 2nd spring does hamper my gun. My guess is if this removing of the smaller inner shell stop spring causes a negative affect, it might be double feeds. We'll see how live fire goes over next 50-100 rds. Oh yeah this is also with the old shell tube spring back in the gun (10 inches past tube end and also the Nordic cut 14 inches past), no difference. It's definitely the shell stop causing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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