dart368 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 The California 3 gun competitors using AR15 rifles have one of two options. They either use an AR that they had prior to 2000 and that they registered as an assault weapon. Or they go with a feature less build with a Monsterman Grip which allows the California shooter to have no bullet button. I am wondering if there is a significant difference in shooting ability between the pistol grip and a feature less grip such as the MonsterMan grip or the "U-15" grip? Could someone be just as competitive using a feature less rifle and shoot just as fast and accurate as a shooter using a pistol grip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Best alternative I have seen to date for any states in favor of banning everything. 100% 50 state legal. http://www.aresdefense.com/?page_id=729 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dart368 Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Nice looking rifle but I already have a JP upper and a lower with a S3G trigger and want to stay with the AR platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durtywrench Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Sorry to hear you have to deal with crap like that. Just another reason I'll never move to California Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbauer67 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I would reccomend the hammerhead grip, with an Ace ultra light stock, It looks a little funny, but actually doesn't feel to bad at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairmckenzie1 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 has anyone AT A 3GUN MATCH ever given you a hard time about what you are shooting or if its legal or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummm Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 There are 3 options: 1) You own a RAW, in which case you have the best of all possible options. It's like actually living in America. 2) You use a bullet button, in which case you need a tool just to drop your mags, but you can have a pistol grip (and other features, like adjustable stock). You may not, however, use magazines with over 10 round capacity, as this would constitute manufacturing an assault weapon, and you don't want to do that. 3) You do not use a bullet button, in which case your rifle cannot have any of the "evil" features, such as pistol grips and adjustable stocks, but you can drop your mags like a free citizen, and, if you legally own magazines with greater than 10 round capacity, you may use them. Most matches will sort competitors based on the laws which burden them, but as you can see there are a lot of permutations (you might have a featureless rifle but not have been in the sport back in 1999, so you never had the chance to buy magazines with greater than 10 round capacity, so you can never have any), so you should look into where you intend to compete, find out what they offer, and then make your decisions based on the matrix of your options and theirs. Having covered the legal stuff, my experiences with the options are: 1) Pistol grip is king for comfort, functionality, safety, control of the weapon, ease / reliability of manipulations, etc, etc, etc. It's the best, no question. But very few have real RAWs, and the burden of a bullet button is simply too much for me to deal with. YMMV. 2) Hammerhead grip is nice, but only if your hands are a certain shape and size. Mine are too thick to fit between the grip and the stock, so a hammerhead becomes no better than a Monsterman, and I find the Monsterman a bit more comfortable. YMMV. The various grip wraps are permutations of Monsterman, and again, are preference things. I found them to be about equal in terms of comfort. 3) A DIY option is called the GripShield, and it involves using the Pearce AR-15 grip to allow a hollow place in the grip for your fingers to go, getting a much better grip (in the opinion of it's proponents). It looks something like this: and you can read all about it here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=617783 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Check out Solar Tactical for another wrap option. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dart368 Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 No one has mentioned anything regarding anyone's set up at a match that I have gone to. I have legally obtained and legal possession of 30 round magazines. I find the Monsterman grip to be comfortable for me and have seen Solar Tactical's products. They look good but I don't see them giving anymore advantage to what I already have. I was just wondering if you put an AR with a pistol grip in a competitor's hands, had him run a stage and then have him run the same stage using a Monsterman grip, would there be a significant difference in time or performance. Thank you all for the responses so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummm Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I was just wondering if you put an AR with a pistol grip in a competitor's hands, had him run a stage and then have him run the same stage using a Monsterman grip, would there be a significant difference in time or performance. No way to make such a blanket statement, imo. Depends on the competitor, depends on the nature of the stage. Also, where do each of us draw the line at "significant"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagdrag Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Ugly as sin and according to the manufacturer it is CA compliant (in CA almost nothing is explicitly legal): Thorsden FRS15 *Admittedly, I still question its legality or compliance but the manufacturer's lawyers have a different opinion and Calguns Foundation has not said otherwise either. Personally, I just go with the Solar Tactical Kydex grip wraps though the grip shield idea is intriguing. I may try making a mold for finger grooves too. Edited May 7, 2014 by bagdrag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jriggs Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 best option: MOVE OUT OF CALIFORNIA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Nice looking rifle but I already have a JP upper and a lower with a S3G trigger and want to stay with the AR platform. The link I provided accepts any AR15 upper. Only difference is the lower receiver and bolt carrier. Very nice rifle. Handled one last month at a local match, very light-weight. Unsure on the trigger though. I didn't get that in depth when looking at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polymerfeelsweirdman Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 option 3: uhaul in all seriousness the kydex wraps for grips (similar concept to monsterman) are convenient if you go to free states but feel very awkward when used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dart368 Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Moving the kids out of school, giving up a 20 year career for something brand new (If I get a job somewhere), just to have a pistol grip...well, probably not an option right now. I think the Monsterman Grip is a little more forgiving than the Kydex Wraps since it is just like shooting a regular rifle like an M1a or Keltec SU16. But really, is there an advantage to the pistol grip besides just that it looks cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Shoot just as fast and accurate... YES! Handle as fast... I'd say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Kudos for following the law! Last time i shot a 3gun match in Cali, maybe 4 out of 40 people had those funky grip things and did not use a Pmag in the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dart368 Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Kudos for following the law! Last time i shot a 3gun match in Cali, maybe 4 out of 40 people had those funky grip things and did not use a Pmag in the match. To their credit, a lot of our competitors have RAW's and have been shooting for years. I kick myself in the rear for not getting one back in 1999. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagdrag Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Kudos for following the law! Last time i shot a 3gun match in Cali, maybe 4 out of 40 people had those funky grip things and did not use a Pmag in the match. To their credit, a lot of our competitors have RAW's and have been shooting for years. I kick myself in the rear for not getting one back in 1999. ^This. Don't assume they're breaking the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Can you use one of these in Cali? Not a rifle, not a pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 add one of these to this, might make a nice 3gun rifle even if it's not a rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagdrag Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) Can you use one of these in Cali? Not a rifle, not a pistol.image.jpg I believe so, but something like that would require a bullet button and also involve a gun trust. That is an AOW correct? Franklin Armory would have better info on how to get that legally in CA. If it was an AR pistol, I would have a better idea on how to get it legally in CA. For AR pistols they would again require the bullet button and going through the single shot exemption process, Also there may be ways to forego the bullet button, but those would likely require some types of permissions from the state. Sorry, I don't have all the details. CA is very restrictive but exercise of gun rights is not completely impossible even if some configurations are more difficult to legally possess than others. Edited May 8, 2014 by bagdrag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagdrag Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 image.jpg add one of these to this, image.jpg might make a nice 3gun rifle even if it's not a rifle. Ironically, that first pic I believe shows a Franklin Armory lower which I mentioned in the prior post. And has or does anyone use a pistol brace in 3-gun? I doubt it would be as useful as having 14.5" barrel rifle with pinned and welded muzzle attachment. I know SBRs are getting popular at some matches but pistols with braces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummm Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Can you use one of these in Cali? Not a rifle, not a pistol.image.jpg It requires a decent understanding of CA law to do the AR pistol thing, so I'm betting it's not a pistol, either. It's not old enough to be C&R, so it's NFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagdrag Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Can you use one of these in Cali? Not a rifle, not a pistol.image.jpg It requires a decent understanding of CA law to do the AR pistol thing, so I'm betting it's not a pistol, either. It's not old enough to be C&R, so it's NFA. Not necessarily. See this letter to the Franklin Armory owner from the ATF (btw, I was wrong about AOW and NFA also). http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf Again, if one is really interested I'm certain Franklin would be willing to help out. Otherwise more detail could probably be gotten from Calguns.net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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