Masada Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Hi everyone, Been lurking and reading for a while and can't seem to find the answer to my problems. So I thought I would throw this out here and hope someone can see something really wrong with my setup, loads or have experienced these problems before. Any help is much appreciated as I'm new to the open gun setup and trying to get my feet wet. I'm determined to make this thing work ahahaha... Issue: Light primer strike Failure to feed (1-20 to 25 rounds) Failure to extract (Fixed by sorting brass and pulling the bad stuff out) Setup: S&W M&P CORE 9L KKM Barrel Carver Custom 3 port comp APEX Forward Set sear and trigger kit (aluminum) APEX competition spring kit Trijicon RMR on the slide (off for now getting fixed) 13 lb Recoil spring Running 23 round mags with wolf extra power spring and Tarren Tactical extensions. Current load worked up: 4.8 grains of WIN 231 with 115 grain x-treme plated projectile. (concerned about this load with a comp) I've run CCI primers and moved over to Winchester primers (Same issues) and loading everything on a Hornady LNL. Steps taken to isolate issue: Removed comp and ran the gun with just the KKM barrel (still had issues) loaded rounds with less OAL 1.12~.005" (Down from 1.169") Used standard mags (still had the same issue) Changed spring from 11lb to 13lbs Polished feed ramp, Barrel breach and any contact surface to eliminate as much drag as possible. Details and evolution: The gun started stock and I put the trigger kit into it and it ran 100%. I then added the RMR on the gun and it was just as reliable as before. Then I added the KKM barrel and comp and that's when I had problems. I've only made one change at a time and evaluated the change every time to make sure it worked. I can usually get through a full mag or down to my last 4-5 in the mag before the issue pops up. Also when I reload, I seem to have the highest chance for a light primer strike (Not sure if this is significant or not). At this point I'm wondering if I have a couple of issues. Based on reading here, I might have an undercharged load for running a comp and I'm running a recoil spring that's too heavy (timing issue on the slide???). The feed issues seem to be when the round is entering the breach it gets stuck so the bullet might go in but the case is not making it all the way forward and into battery. Can someone look at my load data and tell me if I should load more on the hot side. Max is 5.1 grains, but its hard finding data for a gun running a comp on it. I'm wondering if there's not enough gas to cycle the slide properly due to to the comp bleeding off 35-40% of it. Edited March 3, 2014 by Masada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Sounds like a KKM barrel fitment issue. If the barrel isn't properly fitted to the slide and locking block it will take excessive force to lock up properly. Basically leaving the barrel slightly unlocked post shot. You can validate this by looking at the "Light Strike" primer hits. If the light strike hits are not dead center then the barrel is not fully locked up when the striker comes forward. Edited March 3, 2014 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 Sounds like a KKM barrel fitment issue. If the barrel isn't properly fitted to the slide and locking block it will take excessive force to lock up properly. Basically leaving the barrel slightly unlocked post shot. You can validate this by looking at the "Light Strike" primer hits. If the light strike hits are not dead center then the barrel is not fully locked up when the striker comes forward. Solution I assume is take it to a smith and have them fit it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) How else is it going to be fixed if you don't take it to a competent gunsmith? Guns are not like Lego pieces where parts simply snap together and work. Precision fitting is needed in most cases when swapping parts with aftermarket ones. Edited March 3, 2014 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 How else is it going to be fixed if you don't take it to a competent gunsmith? Guns are not like Lego pieces where parts simply snap together and work. Precision fitting is needed in most cases when swapping parts with aftermarket ones. Just validating my conclusion from your previous comment, no need for the lecture. I'm new to open, but no where near new to guns. Ugh...kaching...no one said open was going to be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I would look at the barrel first. I had issues with my km barrel until I did some fitting. You also might want to look at you ammo. With the tighter chamber you should get the egw u-die and then maybe drop check the ammo. Run the stock extractor until you get this thing feeding right then change it to the apex extractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 I would look at the barrel first. I had issues with my km barrel until I did some fitting. You also might want to look at you ammo. With the tighter chamber you should get the egw u-die and then maybe drop check the ammo. Run the stock extractor until you get this thing feeding right then change it to the apex extractor. Any info you can pass on regarding the fitting of the barrel. Right now it's pretty smooth as I've polished the heck out of it (removed sharp edges and burrs). I measured the stock barrel compared to the KKM barrel and for the most part it all seemed to be close to each other. Most times the KKM was smaller than the stock barrel... Maybe I measured the wrong areas??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseman Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 If it was me I would put in a stock 16 pound spring and see if it ran. Mine would run with lighter spring until chamber got a little dirty then start having light strikes. I run an 11 on my 1911 and would love a lighter on my mp's but mine will not run reliably with a lighter spring. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodsk Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 For the light strikes check two things 1. make sure the primer ram on the LNL is set to get proper primer depth. it can back out and if you have slightly high primers they will not ignite. 2. replace the competition striker spring with the stock spring. if the problem goes away give apex a call and start stocking up on federal primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) If it was me I would put in a stock 16 pound spring and see if it ran. Mine would run with lighter spring until chamber got a little dirty then start having light strikes. I run an 11 on my 1911 and would love a lighter on my mp's but mine will not run reliably with a lighter spring. YMMV I'm on the same page with you...I put my stock spring back in so we will see if that does the trick. I have the 11lb spring and the 13lb spring, I thought factory was 17 lbs but I'm probably mistaken. For the light strikes check two things 1. make sure the primer ram on the LNL is set to get proper primer depth. it can back out and if you have slightly high primers they will not ignite. 2. replace the competition striker spring with the stock spring. if the problem goes away give apex a call and start stocking up on federal primers. I had the problem before I put the competition striker spring in. I went so far as to get a new striker assembly from S&W so I have a stock one and a competition assembly. Both have produced the same issue. I'll check the LNL primer ram, but the last batch of 150 rounds I loaded up were all seated correctly. I actually checked each case in the barrel before I put them in the box for my Thursday night steel match and examined the primer specifically too. Please keep the questions and suggestions coming, I'm not trying to be rude and shoot them down, just communicate what I've done already. Edited March 3, 2014 by Masada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) As others have suggested, go back to all stock springs (striker, recoil etc.) and see if the gun runs. If the compensator is easily removed, pull that off too (the extra weight and downforce at the muzzle will inhibit unlocking and slide cycling). Get the gun running then introduce one change at a time. Also, be aware that the recoil spring and striker spring interact to some extent - a light recoil spring can allow the striker spring to hold the slide slightly out of battery for example, resulting in mystery light strikes. Also, your reference to TNS suggests we are neighbors. If I can help by providing parts to swap in/out, shoot me an IM/EM... I have several M&Ps set up for Open, Limited, Production and 3-Gun. Edited March 4, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I would look at the barrel first. I had issues with my km barrel until I did some fitting. You also might want to look at you ammo. With the tighter chamber you should get the egw u-die and then maybe drop check the ammo. Run the stock extractor until you get this thing feeding right then change it to the apex extractor. Any info you can pass on regarding the fitting of the barrel. Right now it's pretty smooth as I've polished the heck out of it (removed sharp edges and burrs). I measured the stock barrel compared to the KKM barrel and for the most part it all seemed to be close to each other. Most times the KKM was smaller than the stock barrel... Maybe I measured the wrong areas??? Mine was so tight when I got it that it took pressure to get it to into lock up when pushing on it from the bottom side with the slide off. After forcing it in by hand a few times and hand cycling the gun for a bit it would shoot but not reliably. I removed a few thousands from the front of the hood of the barrel. I don't remember how much but it wasn't much. .003-.005 maybe? Ran great and grouped great ever since. As others have said, the striker string could be pulling it out of battery. I have never been able to get mine to work reliably with anything less then a 13 lbs recoil spring. That being said I don't have a comp on mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 I would look at the barrel first. I had issues with my km barrel until I did some fitting. You also might want to look at you ammo. With the tighter chamber you should get the egw u-die and then maybe drop check the ammo. Run the stock extractor until you get this thing feeding right then change it to the apex extractor. Any info you can pass on regarding the fitting of the barrel. Right now it's pretty smooth as I've polished the heck out of it (removed sharp edges and burrs). I measured the stock barrel compared to the KKM barrel and for the most part it all seemed to be close to each other. Most times the KKM was smaller than the stock barrel... Maybe I measured the wrong areas??? Mine was so tight when I got it that it took pressure to get it to into lock up when pushing on it from the bottom side with the slide off. After forcing it in by hand a few times and hand cycling the gun for a bit it would shoot but not reliably. I removed a few thousands from the front of the hood of the barrel. I don't remember how much but it wasn't much. .003-.005 maybe? Ran great and grouped great ever since. As others have said, the striker string could be pulling it out of battery. I have never been able to get mine to work reliably with anything less then a 13 lbs recoil spring. That being said I don't have a comp on mine Ok you and I are on the same page then, I did just what you suggested and I even polished up the slide a bit to make it easier for it to go into battery. As others have suggested, go back to all stock springs (striker, recoil etc.) and see if the gun runs. If the compensator is easily removed, pull that off too (the extra weight and downforce at the muzzle will inhibit unlocking and slide cycling). Get the gun running then introduce one change at a time. Also, be aware that the recoil spring and striker spring interact to some extent - a light recoil spring can allow the striker spring to hold the slide slightly out of battery for example, resulting in mystery light strikes. Also, your reference to TNS suggests we are neighbors. If I can help by providing parts to swap in/out, shoot me an IM/EM... I have several M&Ps set up for Open, Limited, Production and 3-Gun. Are you running any of your M&P's with a comp on it? I'm in Laveen so PRG is really close for me and I like it there (even if it's not the nicest range to shoot at). If you are near there let me know and we could meet up some time, I'd love to see what you are working with and get some tips and pointers from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWF Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 just a note when I tried the 11# recoil spring it would fire out of battery, and yes its a open major 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 just a note when I tried the 11# recoil spring it would fire out of battery, and yes its a open major 9 What recoil spring are you running now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWF Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 13# no issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxdc Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 What brand 13 lb spring??? Also what guide rod ya using with that 13lb spring? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masada Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 What brand 13 lb spring??? Also what guide rod ya using with that 13lb spring? Thanks I'm running all ISMI recoil Springs with a carver custom captured guide rod. However, i just bought a non capture guide rod from SSS and will try that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWF Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 What brand 13 lb spring??? Also what guide rod ya using with that 13lb spring? Thanks same as post 18, also the 15# works well also, its just up to the user on what he likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWF Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I guess I also add that (for me) once I had the gun set up for major, 124's at1441 fps it will not run factory 115 loads without changing the recoil spring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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