357 Magnum Loads using 38 Special Brass?

[RDA]

Why would the backwards inertia pull the bullet out? The bullet and the case will move at the same velocity. The bullet isn't being held outside of the tension from the case.

In a run of the mill bullet puller you hammer the puller into a hard surface. The case is held tight but the bullet isn't so it continues forward.

When you shoot a gun the recoil is backwards. Not forwards like a bullet puller.

Has anybody actually measured their COAL's after firing and experienced this?

Comparing a bullet puller to a gun firing are apples and oranges. When a gun fires, the recoil is an abrupt start compared to when you swing a bullet puller which starts slow. With the gun, the slowing of the recoil is "soft" compared to the bullet puller which stops abruptly.

Six-gun shooter is correct.

(sorry, didn't mean to be repetitive, you guys responded while I was drafting and I had to walk away briefly)

Edited February 23, 2014 by RDA

[Religious Shooter]

One major problem is that the .38 case will not crimp in the bullet cannelure. You need a high bullet pull to make Magnum rounds work right. With low bullet pull you will get bullets popping out of the case from recoil and squibs. If you are in a tight situation you may not notice a squib in time to stop shooting. The next shot will be the last one for that gun. Also, the ammo may not work when you really need it.

I would use a bigger gun that will eject the longer cases. Gun is too big you say? If you need it and don't have it you will sing a different tune.

The bullet has what is called static inertia. It tends to remain at the starting point while the gun and case move rearward. It is very basic physics. Yes, I have had this happen before.

You have had bullets popping out of the case "from recoil and squibs"?

Why did this happen to you? Were you shooting 357 loads in 38 cases (or similar)? Or did you not have enough crimp?

[toothguy]

It's Newtons 3rd law of motion "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". Toolguy has been shooting revolvers for many years and is advising you from experience. The best way to learn is to listen to others that have experienced a problem so you can avoid a potential danger.

[Religious Shooter]

It's Newtons 3rd law of motion "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". Toolguy has been shooting revolvers for many years and is advising you from experience. The best way to learn is to listen to others that have experienced a problem so you can avoid a potential danger.

It's been awhile since I've taken physics in college. But what you guys are saying doesn't jive with what I remember.

I can buy that set back may be an issue. I just proved it to myself that it is possible.

But the bullet popping out of the case and causing squibs? I don't know about that.

[RDA]

It's Newtons 3rd law of motion "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". Toolguy has been shooting revolvers for many years and is advising you from experience. The best way to learn is to listen to others that have experienced a problem so you can avoid a potential danger.

It's been awhile since I've taken physics in college. But what you guys are saying doesn't jive with what I remember.

I can buy that set back may be an issue. I just proved it to myself that it is possible.

But the bullet popping out of the case and causing squibs? I don't know about that.

Ok, we can overly simply it. Take a straw, set it on the counter and place a marble in it. Now yank the straw and see if the marble remains in place or does it move with the straw?

This is the same concept as the table cloth "trick":

[Religious Shooter]

I gotcha.

But in order for that to happen there would have to be little to no crimp/tension at all.

[Shadowrider]

Starline does in fact make a thicker web and taper towards the back of the case. It is thicker in the .357 cases than in their .38 brass, so yes .357 brass is stronger. Section a couple of cases and compare, the difference is easy to see.

If you want to make your own cast bullets Lyman's 358156 mold has two crimp grooves. One for ".38 long" and the normal placement for .357. The one for .38 seats the bullet out longer giving you internal case volume closer to .357. With a gas check you can load these to be pretty stout, but I don't know that I'd go all the way to .357 with them even in an N frame. I like for my brass to last awhile...

[Toolguy]

The bullets will come out of the case because of not enough crimp on a heavy recoil load.

The squibs are a different issue also caused by not enough crimp. With some powders, if the pressure doesn't build up enough before the bullet leaves the case, the powder doesn't finish burning and leaves the bullet stuck in the barrel. This only happens occasionally, but when it does, the bullet must be removed from the barrel before firing another shot.

[Shadowrider]

The bullets will come out of the case because of not enough crimp on a heavy recoil load.

The squibs are a different issue also caused by not enough crimp. With some powders, if the pressure doesn't build up enough before the bullet leaves the case, the powder doesn't finish burning and leaves the bullet stuck in the barrel. This only happens occasionally, but when it does, the bullet must be removed from the barrel before firing another shot.

I have this happen to every cylinder full in my 625. I just can't keep the bullets from pulling no matter how hard I crimp and these aren't even hard recoiling rounds like the magnums. I'm kinda OCD about it and it drives me up the wall.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Shadowrider

[RDA]

I gotcha.

But in order for that to happen there would have to be little to no crimp/tension at all.

Not necessarily, the recoil from ammunition firing can be pretty sharp in revolvers, much more so than my silly examples and it could overcome tension greater than you imply.

[Religious Shooter]

All right. So 357 brass is stronger and the recoil in a magnum load may dislodge the bullet compromising reliability. Now it makes sense. Thanks all.

[bowenbuilt]

I think the big part you are missing here is thinking you are going to load revolver bullets the same way you are now loading pistol bullets. This is not going to work. The OAL of a revolver is set by the crimping groove that is formed into the bullet. A roll crimp is used to secure the bullet into the case not a taper crimp. If you attempt to taper crimp a .357 Magnum bullet into a .38 Spl. or .357 case the bullet will jump out of the case and tie the cylinder up on the first or second shot. Pistol and revolver ammo are not loaded the same way. I think you need to do some serious research on loading revolver ammunition and this will answer most of your questions. Right now you know just enough to be dangerous.

[Dr. Phil]

You might not remember but in around 1928 or sometime thereabouts a guy named Elmer Keith (Keith bullet? Yeah, that Keith) did tons of experiments trying to "magnumize" (my word) the .38 Special, including blowing up some guns (some on purpose, some not). He realized that the extra pressure he was introducing to that case was too much and created the 357 Mag. which would handle the pressure, and got S&W to make guns that would handle the pressure, after the 38/44 revolver run. The gun was the "registered magnum", now the Model 27. Many people have since found out that even the gold standard Model 19 won't survive a steady diet of full house magnums. Keith also did the same sort of experiments with the .44 Special that also didn't work. So he created the .44 Magnum. You can load whatever you wish. You have gotten some good advice. If it could be done safely, it probably would be being done. Good luck. Lots of SP101s on G.B. (just in case the need arises) I will kick in 100 357 Mag cases if you need some...

[Religious Shooter]

I think the big part you are missing here is thinking you are going to load revolver bullets the same way you are now loading pistol bullets. This is not going to work. The OAL of a revolver is set by the crimping groove that is formed into the bullet. A roll crimp is used to secure the bullet into the case not a taper crimp. If you attempt to taper crimp a .357 Magnum bullet into a .38 Spl. or .357 case the bullet will jump out of the case and tie the cylinder up on the first or second shot. Pistol and revolver ammo are not loaded the same way. I think you need to do some serious research on loading revolver ammunition and this will answer most of your questions. Right now you know just enough to be dangerous.

As I stated before... there will be probably no crimping groove in the 140 Barnes.

There is no crimping groove in the .357 125 grain Berry's that I have. There is no crimping groove in the .357 158 grain Berry's that I have.

What to you think this thread is if not research?

[Carmoney]

What a bunch of frickin' pansies!

To the O.P.--here's the quick answer: Yes, you can safely use .38 Spl. brass for magnum loads, as long as you are shooting them through a gun that is designed to handle magnum pressures.

[Grump]

Wow, all this on a too-often asked question (Search IS your friend, and not just on this site!), and no one is bleating about the justified but fairly remote danger of SOMEONE ELSE getting your .38 Special cases and stuffing them into a 1905-vintage .38 Special revolver and blowing it up after a dozen shots. Or more. Or maybe never.

Anyway, specs are specs and are there for a purpose and some of those purposes may never come into play for you. But being a guy who handles probates, I can promise you that the odds are that 1) you won't know WHEN you are going to die (not everyone is as lucky as my Dad who got diagnosed on a Tuesday night and passed Saturday shortly after sundown); AND 2) you are most likely going to leave behind some loaded ammo.

The OP said he would load to .357 Mag OAL. Fine. Pressures should be the same or maybe less. .38 Spl. cases of modern manufacture are quite capable of handling the pressures. Easily. No problem. Heck, we have some people hot-rodding .38 Short Colt to Major PF with relative ease and careful powder selection, and like the Spl., that was orginally a BP round.

But then again, WHY? With powders like Power Pistol at probably a half-dozen more, you can get Major PF with heavier bullets and a 6-inch barrel, sometimes without going into the not very much higher pressure +P zone. IIRC, you can even get there with 125-gr bullets.

So, see what you can get from the lowly .38 Special, IN SPECS, with modern powders, before putting the neighbor's WWI-Vintage .38 at risk with Magnum pressure loads in cases that might get separated from your red-letter warning labels. It ain't your grandfather's .38, you know.

BTW, the K-Frame .357 Mag was not possible until S&W started using much higher-strength steels in their cylinders and barrels (and maybe frames). My Dad wore one of the first ones out. And there's a famous/infamous guy posts under the name Clark, up in the Pacific NW IIRC, whose hobby is loading up rounds hotter and hotter until he finds the point where case or gun fail. He's found modern-steel .38 Specials are quite difficult to destroy, at least the S&Ws and Colts (? I don't remember him EVER testing an RG or other cheap "revolver", for example).

[twodownzero]

Pressure = force / area

[ebg3]

The worst bullet creep I've had was with a .357 flat-top because I over crimped the round. It actually reduced tension under the crimp causing the bullets to creep forward under recoil. I backed off the roll crimp a little and the creep went away. Because of the shorter cylinder of the flat-top Ruger, I trim my .357 mag brass enough to allow me to crimp the 170gr Keith bullet in the groove and not tie up the cylinder. Elmer Keith used 38 special brass, mostly, with his swc at big .357 magnum levels. When using .357 Magnum brass, he just increased the powder a little to match the same performance he got with the shorter brass. These loads were shot in heavy duty handguns that could handle the 40,000 + psi loads. I would think the SPO1 could handle moderate to heavy .357 loads just fine.

If you are concerned the 38 special brass is not as tough as .357 brass(I think it is), just trim .357 brass to the length you need for easy extraction. Just be aware of the charges you are loading and don't use .357 data for the shorter brass, if you are crimping to a bullets crimp groove. John Taffin's "Big Bore Handguns" has a lot of great info on heavy loads and the history of the .357. You may even find some of his articles online.

EG

[EEH]

What a bunch of frickin' pansies!

To the O.P.--here's the quick answer: Yes, you can safely use .38 Spl. brass for magnum loads, as long as you are shooting them through a gun that is designed to handle magnum pressures.

Hey I got some of those.

[parisite]

The scenario you speak of, loading 38 Special brass to magnum pressures was once a commercial cartridge called the 38/44. It came in about 1930 and was loaded in N frame S&W's called the 38/44 Heavy Duty and some with adjustable target sights called Outdoorsmen.

Edited March 1, 2014 by parisite

[Religious Shooter]

Wow, all this on a too-often asked question (Search IS your friend, and not just on this site!)

I searched. Show me the links that has the information that this thread has.

[Religious Shooter]

The scenario you speak of, loading 38 Special brass to magnum pressures was once a commercial cartridge called the 38/44. It came in about 1930 and was loaded in N frame S&W's called the 38/44 Heavy Duty and some with adjustable target sights called Outdoorsmen.

Thanks. Interesting read. I'm having trouble finding what the COAL is for the 38/44.

[Garrett]

I load .44 Mag in .44 Spl. cases. I do this specifically with 300 gr. bullets, so I can tell just by looking if the loaded round is 300 gr. (Spl case) or less (Mag case).

Hornady puts a second crimp groove on their heavy bullets (300 gr .44s and 180 gr .357s for example), in the correct location to load the cartridge to Mag OAL.

Your 140 gr Barnes bullets should be long enough to provide adequate neck tension, even if loading in a .38 Spl case. You may want to use a taper crimp die since there is no crimp groove on those bullets.

Set up correctly, I would not hesitate to load .357 Mag in .38 Spl cases. If you are concerned about case construction, you can cut cases in half and measure base thickness. Or you can just trim Mag cases to Spl length.

[toothguy]

Garrett, it looks like you are using the same space for powder in each case which seems safe. When I read the OP my understanding was that he wanted to load at .357 velocity but using a smaller amount of case volume in the 38 special, because the shorter case reloaded faster.

[Garrett]

Garrett, it looks like you are using the same space for powder in each case which seems safe. When I read the OP my understanding was that he wanted to load at .357 velocity but using a smaller amount of case volume in the 38 special, because the shorter case reloaded faster.

He stated in post #5 that he intended to load them to the same OAL as a .357 Mag. With the right bullet / powder combo you could load shorter ammo to magnum levels safely as well (assuming you shoo them in a magnum-rated gun). You just have more opportunity to get the wrong ammo in the wrong gun.

FWIW, I understand the .357 case designed made longer, not so they could stuff more powder in there, but so you could not physically fit them in the chamber of a small-framed .38 Spl. Before that, people were shooting .38/200 loads (aka .38 HD, aka .38 Heavy Duty) in small- framed guns not intended for it, and causing damage to them.