Jake Di Vita Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 OK guys, I've been brain storming and here are a few things I've come up with. What I forsee... Point series consists of 6 - 10 matches. Matches are determined in advance each year after the Top Gun championship...(explained later) All point series matches consist of at least 12 stages. No limit to number of entries per match. Scoring is based on 100 point system. IE: 1st place overall earns you 100 points, 2nd earned 99 and so on. Same deal with different classes. If a person gets 1st Master and 3rd Overall, he gets 100 Master points and 98 Overall points. Top 3 finishers in each class at end of season are automatically moved up. If at any time in overall points, when calculated against current leader, a competitor is more than 10% higher than the top of their classification bracket, that competitor is automatically moved up a class. His scores are then re-calculated for the class he is in. That should do a fairly good job of eliminating sand bagging. Top Gun championship takes place after last point series match of the season. This is where the top 16 finishers in each division are invited to shoot a match for the coveted Top Gun Trophy (yes that is stolen from the movie....sue me ) Winnings: Cash payout at end of season. Competitors may only place in one division. Can't be 1st GM and still place 3rd Overall. Pot for winnings accumulated through sponsorship and point series match fees, along with anything else you can think of....maybe increase USPSA membership fees $5 per year and have that go towards payout. NO PRIZE TABLE in point series matches. Money that would normally go towards purchasing prizes is instead alocated towards pot for winners. As an example. 1st Overall - $10,000 2nd Overall - $9,000 3rd Overall - $8,000 1st GM - $5,000 2nd GM - $4,500 3rd GM - $4,000 16th GM - $500 1st M - $2,500 2nd M - $2,250 3rd M - $2,000 16th M - $250 And so on. The way this is layed out should encourage increase in skill and discourage sand bagging as winning C class will pay out less than doing ok in Master. Figures are just basic estimates and will depend solely on amount of money generated for the pot. Figure money from point series matches towards pot. $20 per competitor. Say average of 200 competitors per match (hopefully much more). $4,000 per match. Over 6 matches, $24,000. Adding $5 to USPSA membership fees. Figuring on 10,000 members. That would equate to about $50,000. Say $26,000 in sponsorship donations. That is $100,000 in the total pot, and none of those numbers are unrealistic. I think with the proper marketing, publicity, and of course a little bit of luck, this could prove to be a HUGE deal for the growth of USPSA. Face it, chances are if there is money that can be won, more people are going to be drawn to it. Plus the way it is set up is perfect for televising. The Point series matches could each have a segment on TV, with standings being listed in each front sight, and perhaps other gun-related magazines. The more publicity it gets, the more it is going to grow. Alright, I just threw this together in the past hour, and am on a very large deficit of sleep, so what are your guy's opinions? I think with the combined knowledge and resources on this forum, this could be made into real life, and with all the ideas we are probably going to get, it could be fantastic.... Lets start thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 There are a couple issues in there but overall I would support something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Great idea. I think you would get much more participation with this type system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Jake, You have some good ideas. The issues, as I see them, is that ALL sectionals and other lower-tiered matches need to benefit, so it can't be just 6-10 hand-picked matches. Make the requirements similar to PS as it currently exists. Say 4 Sectionals, two Areas, two "Other" matches. That way, matches will be well attended across the country, and the sport will grow. With these criteria, the big boys are gonna have to "butt heads", as there are only so many area and other matches available, so the only place to avoid losing and be guaranteed your 100 percent is at the sectionals, but that is ok, as the other and area matches will seperate the men from the boys. I think we should still go by match percentage, as it is more of a true indicator. I would limit the maximum amount of matches they can shoot though, to get their optimum score. Say, one extra area match, one extra other match, and one extra sectional. That will eliminate making it a richy-rich event where the guy with the largest budget wins. They could still shoot additional matches, they just wouldn't count toward the ponts series. Also, points series entrants should be charged the equivilent of a nationals slot...say $250. This will make it more self-supporting, and not piss off the USPSA membership because not everybody wants to shoot it. Remember, these people don't have to pay for a nationals anymore, so it is expected, that to become champion, they have to spend this "found money". As for prize table provisions, I would not force the no prize table thing. I, personally, don't believe in them, but I don't feel it is right to impose ones will on the match organizers. This issue is very controversial. Given an average of say 1000 participants, you are talking $250,000 in purse money...That is a hell of a start!!! Plus, you could get the equivalent of a nationals prize table, as nationals don't exist anymore!!! This thing could be huge!!! Anyone else got an idea??? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.J. Norris Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I'd say stop limiting each Area to only one "Other" match, in the big areas, it can really put a damper on people being able to shoot them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 12, 2004 Author Share Posted December 12, 2004 I think there should be only a set number of required matches that are pre named for this reason. If the point series maches don't draw the top dogs for ALL of the matches, the results won't be accurate. Say some GM shoots at a match that Max Michel shoots at and gets 90 points in overall. At the next match, Max isn't there and he ends up shooting and getting 5th place to someone that lost to match last time and gets 95 points. It is not an accurate representation. For the actual point series to work like I was thinking, the same people would have to shoot each match. a $250 point series entry fee is a great start though. Can you imagine how much more active it would be if there was over $250,000 in prize money!!! What I'd love to see, is 6 matches (if that's what we choose) around the country, pulling 500 to 1000 compeitors each match (with each match having $20 towards point series for each competitor). People might say that it is still up to the person who has the most free time or money.....but I guarantee that with a purse like that, people are giong to be making allowances to be able to participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Some great ideas, we have to do something i mean holy crap look at the televised sports out there .. no offense but nascar is about as boring as they get, cars running in a counterclockwise circle.... POKER is now a SPORT! according to ESPN. i think done right shooting could be much more entertaining than many of the sports out there. I'm behind it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I like what I'm hearing I would keep nats out of it, and just use sectionals and area matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Why not just make only the area matches points series. They allready have a limited number of them and they probably have the highest amount of participants involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 How about the same multipliers, but make the maximum 8 any way you want it? Nats would still be 4, Area would still be 2, State and other would still be 1. This way, almost any shooter could get to 8 no matter what their geography or travel schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 The only way to make it viable is to eliminate nats and use those entry fees to pump up the purse. Keeping it in conjunction with a nationals is a death sentence IMHO. The entire reason for going to this type of format is to crown a "TRUE" champion who showed consistency throughout the year...not a one-hit wonder. Jake: If we have to limit the match count and hand-pick them (and I understand your reasons), it should be all the area matches plus eight (one per area) at-large matches TBD by each area director. Your best 8 performances count, and you can only shoot 10 for the Points Series (at least, the first 10 is all that can go toward it) That would keep it geographically spread out (yet 8 would easily be attendable), and not be subject to...shall we say...creative scheduling on anyones part. Jeff PS Keep in mind, that Areas and a few select venues are the only events capable of hosting as many competitors as what Jake is talking about. Something to keep in mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I'm liking the ideas. I dissagree with not including the Nationals, that doesn't make any sense to me. It's our biggest match of the year. If we're scoring this thing on a percentage, the nationals will be a more "true" percentage of your ability than any other match of the year. As for consistancy, it might not show a years worth of consistancy but over a 20+ stage match, if you're not consistant you ain't going to place very well. Whatever we/they come up with needs to 1) be decided pretty soon 2) get the word out to us better. Last year it didn't seem like anybody knew how the thing was working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 12, 2004 Author Share Posted December 12, 2004 The main thing I think will get this off the ground is having the top competitors at every match. 8 out of 10 may be a good idea, but I don't think we should have a multiplier in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Devils' Advocate mode: Why should I, as a no, one or two big-match shooting person (that would be, say, 95% of USPSA), pay an extra $5 dues each year that I have no chance of ever winning? Sounds like a great way for the BOD to get voted out of office. Participants or sponsors pay is the only way. (anybody considered the legal implications of any of this? I wouldn't be surprised to see it violate any number of states' lottery laws) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 A few queries of the scoring database should give us an idea of how many unique competitors have the travel budget needed to shoot that many matches. I'd bet that number is way, way, WAY less than 1000. I'd further bet that the vast majority are at least Master class. If the powers that be want to structure the national championship -- whether it be a single match or a point series -- for the exclusive benefit of the top shooters, that's fine. In that case however, we should stop pretending that these plans will be able to draw a large number of competitors to fund this hypotehtical prize pool. ... Myself, I've always wondered why the format isn't a national tournament. Clubs send their champions to a sectional or state match, state/sectional champions go to the area championship, and the area champs go to nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 12, 2004 Author Share Posted December 12, 2004 The extra dues what just a suggestion to get things rolling. As someone that doesn't know much about that, I'll ask what would prize money have to do with lottery laws. People win prizes from major matches, it's the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 The extra dues what just a suggestion to get things rolling.As someone that doesn't know much about that, I'll ask what would prize money have to do with lottery laws. People win prizes from major matches, it's the same thing. I bet there's a lot of don't-ask-don't-tell with those awards (and they're generally small enough not to matter). The matches that do this for a living make sure they have all the IRS paperwork in order. But, those are per-state. A national points-series would require all the states laws to be OK with it. BTW, I brought this up when the PS was first proposed, and wasn't impressed with the answer I got back... Mandatory entries by people that don't even qualify to win the big prizes may be in worse legal shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 We already have a national points-series, to my knowledge there hasn't been any legal issues with it. I guarantee every state in the US has some sort of competition with prize money. Basically think of this idea for the point series as the same as it is now, just with more cash at stake....and that is what it basically is. I like Jeff's idea of using the best 8 out of 10 matches, however I do not think matches should have multipliers to them...Really there is no point to it. Figure if you want to place in the point series (when there is so much more money at stake, people will take it more seriously) you will have to attend at least 8 of the 10 matches. Having a multiplier really does nothing except complicates things. I feel that all the points series matches should have the same number of stages, approximate round count, and difficulty to be able to gauge who was the most consistent over the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Okay...So lets see what we've got now: Smiity: By eliminating nationals, I mean ELIMINATE NATIONALS...No more...POOF...GONE!!! Replaced entirely by Points Series. That is where the prize pool money comes from. No Nationals=Disposable Income not spent=funding for Points Series (for ONLY those that wish to participate). We also don't tap our sponsors anymore, as we would only be asking for what they already give to Nationals as they are today. No dues increases. Only participants are charged $250 to enter to win their championship. True champions crowned in all classes and divisions by year-long performance. Jake: I agree...No multiplier. I also say, no dues increases...It must support itself. MoNsTeR: I understand what you're saying, however, Area Championships simply would not be feasible as not everybody that wins their sectional wants to go to areas, then Nationals etc.... You would need at-large participants to get the amount of competitors necessary. Shred: All monies and prizes are centralized in Sedro Wooley. The entries, fees and prizes solicited would be regulated by Washington State law. The monies the matches pay are a fee structure for USPSA. If you aren't registered at Sedro, you aren't in the PS. I talked to my buddy who works with NASCAR sponsorship, and he said that everything is centralized to avoid the problems you are presenting. Fees paid to the parent organization are scrutinized by where their base of operations is located, and ONLY by that state. Hope this helps. Everybody: This effectively makes USPSA Nationals a roadshow, just like NASCAR. The stars come to town, and anybody can strap on the leather and shoot against them if they want. I would make it an additional $10 as a "national classifier fee" for these hand-picked matches as it will most certainly be counted as such with the level of competiton there. It could also serve to sweeten the pot, while still meeting the lawful requirements. If you are "average Joe" shooter, and don't want to pay an additional $10 for your classifier...Guess what??? You don't have to go to the match. However, if you want to shoot against the best, and be judged against the best, pony-up the measley $10, and go have at 'er. Having 2 matches per Area (Area Championship + one other TBD) is a nice mix, and keeps it regionalized for everyone. We are only talking 16 majors out of 60 or so matches anually, so it is not going to dominate the match schedule, yet everyone could attend if they wanted to. We are never going to find a solution that appeases everybody. If you really want to be a national champion, you have to be dedicated. Can it favor people with more time and money??? Yes. But so does the system we currently have. B through D class shooters (I'm one of 'em) don't get out nearly as much as the GM's, but that doesn't stop them from competing, as they only need 8 matches out of (potentially) 16 available (10 of which can be used as entries) that are geographically equal. IMHO it is about as fair as you can make it given the landscape of shooters out there. I know I won't make 8 of 'em, but I will get to see the big guys, learn from watching them, and hopefully it will raise my game so I can one day shoot like them. Besides, I may not need 8 matches to win. That is what is currently happenning with Points Series. As it is now, it is pretty elite. You can't level the playing field completely all at once, but it is a step in the right direction. Let 'er rip. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 This effectively makes USPSA Nationals a roadshow, just like NASCAR. The stars come to town, and anybody can strap on the leather and shoot against them if they want. I would make it an additional $10 for these hand-picked matches to sweeten the pot. If you are "average Joe" shooter, and don't want to get soaked for an additional $10...Guess what??? You don't have to go to the match. However, if you want to shoot against the best, pony-up the measley $10, and go have at 'er. Having 2 matches per Area (Area Championship + one other TBD) is a nice mix, and keeps it regionalized for everyone. We are only talking 16 majors out of 60 or so matches anually, so it is not going to dominate the match schedule, yet every could attend if they wanted to. Let 'er rip. Jeff Jeff, Really? You're going to tell my customers --- the people who shoot my club matches --- who are interested only in shooting the A8 match, that since all area matches are now point series matches that they have to cough up an extra $10 to shoot their area match in order to support a point series they're not going to be participating in? A match that they very well may be supporting by working the stages or the set-up crew? Or they can stay away, if they don't want to pay the $10? Who's going to set up and run the shooters? I'll be voting and lobbying against anything that seeks to force non-participating shooters to support the point series. Right now the Nationals impact on the shooter who doesn't attend is minimal --- certainly not $10/match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Nik: First, go back and see my post, I edited it. Secondly, what do you think is currently happenning with the monies you send to national office. Surprise, surprise...It is helping to fund a national event. People pay more for qualifier rounds in several other sports, It is a fact of life. I understand your point, but under the current system, you are paying anyway but just don't know it. Do you really think that that $5.00 tournament fee is the cost of processing your match??? Let's not be naive. As a "classifier event" (3 GM's will be there-no doubt - And USPSA got them there to help pump your match.) it is not out of line IMHO. Hope this clarifies. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Thanks for the cash rule update. Here's some stats for 2004 (when there was a PS of a sort) From this I think there's better things than charging 99% of the membership to possibly pay 1%. A Pay-to-Play PS I could maybe live with, but no shooter-welfare, thanks. Even if we could get ten-times the participation (which will happen about the time we all get six weeks of mandatory vacation), it would still be ~90% paying to support 10%. Total 2056 Area match entries, all divsions combined. Total number of shooters with a current classification: 10097 # shooters shooting one area match in 2004:......1359 (66%) (13.5% of USPSA) # shooters shooting two area matches in 2004:...444 (22%) .. (4.4% of USPSA) # shooters shooting three area matches in 2004:.105 (5%) .. (1.0% of USPSA) # shooters shooting four area matches in 2004:....76 (4%) ... (0.8% of USPSA) # shooters shooting five area matches in 2004:....45 (2%) ... (0.4% of USPSA) # shooters shooting six area matches in 2004:.......6 (0%) ... (0.1% of USPSA) # shooters shooting seven area matches in 2004:.21 (1%) ... (0.2% of USPSA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Point series registrations-98 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Jeff, I didn't pick up on that. I still don't like it though. I'd rather have a nationals whether we have a point series or not. Any point series is going to be more dependant on ability to attend matches vs. shooting ability. The Nationals will put shooter against shooter. Jake, I like some kind of multiplier, basically it accounts for the competition at a given match. Area's and Nationals have much tougher competition than an "other" match. So you get bonus points for your placing in them. Although I don't think 10 extra bucks is going to break anybody (if it does you probably have the wrong hobby) I think we would be better off if it were supported only by the PS shooters. Just to keep the bitching down. Granted I have not competed in the PS yet because I didn't figure it was worth it. However if we/they figured a better system I would be willing to buck up a decent amount to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 shred's numbers handily illustrate my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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