Ddipert Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Stage was going smoothly up until...STOP... I was shooting a string of 4 paper wasn't happy with the placement of my shots on target 2. Shot a second set. Was just beyond the 2nd target. Broke the 180. I should have let the score stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Out of Ammo Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well, I think the DQ bug eventually catches up with all of us. Just make sure you learn from the mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I should have let the score stand. Yep. Live and learn. Nobody got hurt so that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddipert Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 First time DQ, so as long no one was injured, and I learned from it (which i did) then it wasn’t total loss. Just frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 As long as the stage was not SETUP as a DQ stage, mistakes happen. The majority of the time a slight 180 break doesn't endanger anybody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 As long as the stage was not SETUP as a DQ stage, mistakes happen. The majority of the time a slight 180 break doesn't endanger anybody I would love to hear your definition of a DQ stage. I have been thinking about this topic a lot and I think that a few simple changes to stage design can drastically reduce the chances of a 180 DQ. For example, sitting up no shoots, walls, or even angling the targets can easily make it so that the targets are no longer available once the 180 has been passed and remove the temptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Several that I've seen where the targets are ONLY available at near the 180, and they are 175 degrees apart, or more. Some then added some sort of unstable platform to shoot from. While I don't have much of a problem with either by themselves, shooting targets 175 degrees apart WHILE on an unstable platform is a deliberate DQ stage in my opinion. At a club that has "Out of bounds" DQ pole inside the berms, then placing targets near that boundary, with a barricade or hall way that makes it nearly impossible NOT to point the muzzle past the Out of Bounds. Stuff like that, I WANT challenging stages, the harder the better, IMO, but a match with the above mentioned DQ's is a poorly planned match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasref Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I agree with not setting up for DQ stages. I think anytime the RO warns to watch your 180, there's a safety problem before you shoot. If the stage design or set up seems to be too close to the 180 rule, it probably is. I don't like hearing about things like this, when they are totally avoidable if the stage is set correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 USPSA is a big boys game. Targets at or near the limits make it more challenging and fun quite frankly. I generally warn at local matches because we tend to have newer shooters in larger numbers. And typically it's not swinging on targets past the 180 that gets them. It's the reloads. I have seen far more shooters DQ reloading than I have shooting. I also agree that it is good practice to limit availability to targets from unsafe angles but you can't hide them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgardner Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Yep, it's a big boys game. Looking for traps (and gaming opportunities ) is why we get a walkthrough. Sharing that info keeps the newbies coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Self inducing DQ's are bad enough,but I don't see the need of stating up a shooter for a possible DQ.. I hate traps.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I prefer stages where it's a challenge to shoot, not a challenge to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgardner Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 We sprint with loaded guns so I'd say it's a challenge to be safe right from the get go. That's why we do it with adult supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Now let's make you sprint backwards with a loaded gun just to see if you can avoid getting DQed. I guess my point is that sometimes the added risk is unnecessary and I don't think the explicit purpose of a hypothetical stage design should be to test whether a shooter can do something arbitrary without DQing. Edited February 3, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgardner Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I can sprint backwards with a loaded gun and not get DQ'd because I have practiced doing so. I have been awarded reshoots twice because the RO got in the way and was nearly flattened but I never did anything unsafe with the gun. It's a test of shooting and gun handling at whatever speed your body and brain can function. You need to develop awareness at a deep level and the RO warnings or being DQ'd speed that process and keep you safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Yeah, if you want simple, boring, easy, straight ahead, non creative stages shoot _ _ _ _ instead. Moving backwards, side to side, going through tunnels, climbing steps, seated starts, shooting to the extreme flanks, shooting from shaky bridges, Teeter Totters, through ports, under walls, over walls are all part of USPSA. I don't envision a good creative stage as one that is designed and built, "just to see if you can avoid getting DQed". You really need to learn to run in any possible direction with your gun in order to get the most out of this game. If you are shooting matches that are just stand and shoot, or move from Box A to box B and shoot the targets right in front of you, you are not getting your money's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 2.1.4 Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire. Empahasis added by me Way to many people setting up courses ignore the last line of this rule. It says "MUST" The way I was taught to read this rule was to try and protect the shooter from taking a shot at a target past the safe angle of fire. For example as the shooter moves through the COF and the target is close to 90 degrees put up a vision barrier so they lose sight of it past 90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 2.1.4 Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire. Empahasis added by me Way to many people setting up courses ignore the last line of this rule. It says "MUST" The way I was taught to read this rule was to try and protect the shooter from taking a shot at a target past the safe angle of fire. For example as the shooter moves through the COF and the target is close to 90 degrees put up a vision barrier so they lose sight of it past 90. Thank you for that reference. IMHO opinion this is how courses should be designed so it's nice to see the rules clearly backing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Still doesn't stop someone from reloading while moving left ( or right if left handed) close to the 90 and turning the gun across their body to reload. I think this is the #1 cause. Being Muzzle aware is your best defense. Go take an RO class then work some big matches. You will learn quickly how to spot areas that will get you in trouble when you get to watch a lot of people run your stage. For example, a port in a wall that is sitting at 90 degrees to the berm and the targets are at 60 degrees to the berm. You come up to the port stick your gun in it (bad idea) then catch the muzzle on the edge of the port on the way out. You just got a ticket to Dairy Queen. Not a bad design but still got you a ticket home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgardner Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I think the key phrase here is " being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action". I agree that the course needs to be as idiot proof as possible but there's always an opportunity to do something spectacular if everyone tries hard enough. Make wise choices as to when you will shoot the targets and don't try to perform past your ability. The time to push past your ability is in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 The time to push past your ability is in practice. Preferably dry fire practice. You have a good point. Most of the people I see DQ have a brain fart and forget where they are, have a poor stage plan where they don't take into account the places that will get them in trouble, or just get in a hurry trying to go as fast as the guy with a lot more experience the just got done running before them. From Magnum force (1973) Clint Eastwood (AKA) Harry Callahan: A man's GOT to know his limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 My advice to people who are scared of dq-ing because some stages don't make it impossible to dq is to start designing and setting up stages for your local matches. The folks who are currently doing it would probably welcome the assistance. At our local matches, I try to call out possible problem areas for newer shooters when we do the walkthrough of the stage. I also recommend that people do dryfire practice at home that involves reloading while moving in both directions. Muzzle-awareness isn't hard unless you only try to practice it at matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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