Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I've got a solution. We amend the rules to let those of you who want to compete heads up to drop out of the classification system. You simply petition USPSA to promote you to a permanent Unclassified status, which allows you to compete for the division win only....... Since the rest of us will continue to include classifier stages in our monthly matches, your classifier scores continue to roll in, and get displayed with an xx percentage, in case you should change your mind. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) How many classification system-sandbagging-grandbagging-prize table threads are we up to now? They all amount to the same end result, which IMO is just much gnashing of teeth and spinning of wheels. I guess these cold snaps has everyone forced inside with cabin fever. Just to throw this out there... Steel Challenge, at least the big Piru, California shoot did just fine without classifications. Until USPSA bought it. :-\ Edited January 26, 2014 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) I never said I didn't want to have a classification, quite the opposite actually. I just think it would be more representative of shooter's skills to be match results based instead of a STD stage result basis. Also, no matter what else your opinion, I assume everyone would agree that sandbagging & grandbagging would disappear overnight if there where no awards handed out for anything other the overall order of finish within a division, right? Everyone has a different view of sandbagging based on their individual experience and I've seen enough of it in my limited time for me to wonder if we shouldn't be doing things differently ... and I get that if you've never really experienced it you would believe it's not a big issue. Maybe it could be as simple as saying that if you finish first in your classification at a level 2 or 3 match and your match percentage is at the next highest classification, then you are bumped to that class. Similar to what they do if you win a level 2 or 3 (?) match & shoot 95% or higher you get a GM card (if I have that right). I know it's not perfect since what if a master wins the match and you finish '1st C" with 62% match pts. What is 62% of a master? But how often does a GM not win a level 2 or 3 match? And is the master who won a real master or is he sandbagging ... Edited January 27, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Everyone has a different view of sandbagging and I've seen enough of it for me to wonder if we shouldn't be doing things differently ...if you've never experienced it you would believe it's not a big issue. Maybe it could be as simple as saying that if you finish first in your classification at a level 2 or 3 match and your match percentage is at the next highest classification, then you are bumped to that class. BINGO. Perfectly stated. I've been there, and am VERY bothered by it - Believe this would do quite a bit, very easily, to help to begin to solve the problem, a little. Won't do away with it - but it's a start and a Very Easy Start - no big deal to bump a class winner up to where they belong .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 yep, this way you'd get to sandbag once and then you're in the class you should be in ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) the purpose of the classification system is to lump shooters into similar skill levels; it's purpose is not intended to correlate to your major match performance. It meets its intended purpose perfectly. If you want to know what % you should expect to shoot against top shooters, go shoot against them, don't just look at your classification % (otherwise, why hold LIIIs, we could just send plaques to the highest % every year). People invest WAY to much thought/emotion into the system. If "Bs" are mostly lumped with other "Bs" and "As" are mostly lumped with other "As" then it's working well. Someone "sandbag" and take that class trophy away from you? Well, if the trophy is that important then "if you can't beat them, join them..." applies; except in this case you still have to improve enough to be able to beat them. If you want your skill to stay stagnant and still get trophies, that is just another form of sandbagging. Keep improving, forget the rest. -rvb Edited January 27, 2014 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 But that's my entire point ... The classification system should be centered around match performance ...there are people who will continue to mess with their classification if possible but they won't mess with their match performance I would be ok with a two tiered system as well. Keep the one we have so you can determine your relative skill level on an individual basis but then add a match based one for use in determining prizes at matches ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The classification system should be centered around match performance Why? again, it's purpose is to lump shooters into skill groups it does a pretty good job of that if you look @ major match scores. If it did any better we wouldn't have to hold the match... just pay the entry fee and see who has the highest % or closest to the class %s. there are people who will continue to mess with their classification if possible but they won't mess with their match performance "sandbaggers" ARE messing with their match performance if they are tanking classifiers on purpose. Classifiers are part of matches. (That's why I like classifiers in LIIs, LIIIs, it messes w/ those who game the system) add a match based one for use in determining prizes at matches ... seriously, you don't think people would find a way to game some new system too? You would have people looking at current match scores, realizing they are getting close to whatever magic threshold is set, and throttle their performance to try to end up w/ a trophy or stay in whatever 'bracket' they need to be in for a latter match w/ the bigger prize table, etc. gamers gonna game, sandbaggers gonna sandbag, shooters gonna shoot (and not worry about it so much). be a shooter. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) seriously, you don't think people would find a way to game some new system too? You would have people looking at current match scores, realizing they are getting close to whatever magic threshold is set, and throttle their performance to try to end up w/ a trophy or stay in whatever 'bracket' they need to be in for a latter match w/ the bigger prize table, etc. gamers gonna game, sandbaggers gonna sandbag, shooters gonna shoot (and not worry about it so much). be a shooter. -rvb sandbaggers will only sandbag as long as matches offer participation/self-esteem prizes for 'class' wins (i.e., beating the other people who don't practice enough to get better). Edited January 27, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... My first major I got "2nd D", then the following yr I got "2nd C" and found it a sign of improvement compared to the prior year. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... My first major I got "2nd D", then the following yr I got "2nd C" and found it a sign of improvement compared to the prior year. Eric I agree that shows improvement, but wouldn't you get the same signs of improvement by noticing that you shot 52% of the division winner last year, and 64% of the division winner this year? In my experience, the people that win C class trophies are really shooting at a B level and are just 1 or 2 more classifier scores from upgrading. If you only shoot 1 or 2 classifiers a month, and you tank one every now and then by making mistakes or going too fast, it can take 6 months or more for your classification to catch up with your actual shooting ability. I personally am much more proud of my overall percentage and placing at the major matches I've shot than I am of the class placing. However, it doesn't bother me if other people find motivation and reward in class results. If that motivates them to practice and improve and keep coming to matches to shoot and help out, then I guess it's all good. Edited January 27, 2014 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I agree that shows improvement, but wouldn't you get the same signs of improvement by noticing that you shot 52% of the division winner last year, and 64% of the division winner this year? There are too many variables, for me at least, to make annual match performance a valid basis for comparison. Each year stages change, competitors change, etc. I'm going to go and shoot to the best of my ability but I don't see me getting a warm fuzzy feeling if I shoot 65% this year and shot 50% last year. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison in my mind. I really like the current steel challenge method of classification. Your total time for each of the stages is then compared to a specific set of times. If your total is > 500 seconds you're not classified. Between 500 and 201 seconds you're a D shooter and so forth. This actually takes care of sandbaggers because if they go to a major match and perform at a level higher than they currently are classified they'll get moved up once the results are uploaded and compiled at USPSA/SCSA. Perhaps that's how USPSA should go. The very highest HHF for each classifier becomes the world record for that classifier then your classification is based on how much longer it takes you to shoot it compared to the world record. The biggest hurdle I see with that approach is we have 8 stages in steel challenge and 60+ classifier stages in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I agree that shows improvement, but wouldn't you get the same signs of improvement by noticing that you shot 52% of the division winner last year, and 64% of the division winner this year? There are too many variables, for me at least, to make annual match performance a valid basis for comparison. Each year stages change, competitors change, etc. I'm going to go and shoot to the best of my ability but I don't see me getting a warm fuzzy feeling if I shoot 65% this year and shot 50% last year. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison in my mind. I think the variables are there at a local match, but at an area or national match, you always have several gm's at the top, and at that level the shooting is pretty consistent. The difference between 50% and 52% may not be significant, but 50% vs 65% is HUGE, and can not in any feasible way be explained by different competitors or stages. It's entirely a comparison of apples to apples imho. Oddly enough, it seems to correlate very closely to my actual classification percentage as well, which tells me the current system is working just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) well I was going to respond to all the above but Moto is doing an excellent job of providing my opinion for me .... keep up the good work ... Edited January 27, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 yep, never have understood what it means to get an award as "2nd 'C' shooter" .... My first major I got "2nd D", then the following yr I got "2nd C" and found it a sign of improvement compared to the prior year. Eric I agree that shows improvement, but wouldn't you get the same signs of improvement by noticing that you shot 52% of the division winner last year, and 64% of the division winner this year? Absolutely correct, my major match percentage going from 34% to 45% to 53% is the main thing I take note of now. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I guess it's all been said on this topic. Some of us see a problem with the current situation, that could be partially rectified by a simple change, and others don't see any problem. Back to the range .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I guess it's all been said on this topic. Some of us see a problem with the current situation, that could be partially rectified by a simple change, and others don't see any problem. Back to the range .... the thing is, we see the problem in a completely different way, and therefore see a different change to rectify it. I see sandbagging and bragging about class 'wins' as a slight problem, and my simple change to rectify it would be to stop recognizing class wins, and *especially* to stop rewarding them with prizes. Bang. Problem solved in 1 fell swoop, no changes to the excellent classification system needed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) I guess it's all been said on this topic. Some of us see a problem with the current situation, that could be partially rectified by a simple change, and others don't see any problem. Back to the range .... the thing is, we see the problem in a completely different way, and therefore see a different change to rectify it. I see sandbagging and bragging about class 'wins' as a slight problem, and my simple change to rectify it would be to stop recognizing class wins, and *especially* to stop rewarding them with prizes. Bang. Problem solved in 1 fell swoop, no changes to the excellent classification system needed! I think that idea is a bit demotivating for those trying to come up in the sport. If you can't be rewarded for winning your class, what is the purpose of designating a classification then? Why not let it be division separation only. All I'm saying is the upper classes B-GM are where the talent is or is coming from. Why take away a reward for their progress? The sandbagger/grandbagger thing doesn't matter to me. But what does matter is a return in an investment. Major matches are expensive, when you include cost of travel, ammo etc. I will be shooting my first majors this season, and have every intention of not only winning my class, but placing as high in the division as possible. I am in this sport to win this sport, to be the best you have to beat the best....and I am working towards being the best. But it is a volunteer gig. I support all of my shooting expenses, as do most other shooters. So I think taking away the chance to recoup some of the money spent is a bad idea. However, an easy way to offset the sandbagging for the sole purpose of major match prize winnings = top finishers in each class should gain a classification score that links them solidly to the next ranking. For example, B Class winner- 80% classifier score added to the resume that stays for 1 calendar year. A class winner-90% classifier score added....and so on. If one can win in their class several times, it is time to move on into the next class. If one isn't ready, call shenanigans because they earned their way in with the bigger fish.....keep swimming and learning to do it better, or give up, be eaten and quit. Leave these Major match earned classifier scores set in stone for 1 year, and after 4 class wins, even if they sandbag local matches, BAM!!! No more sandbagging. Edited January 27, 2014 by jabbermurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 If there is no need for a class win then there is no need for a class. This then implies that there is no need for classifiers since the class is no longer important. So heads up it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) If there is no need for a class win then there is no need for a class. This then implies that there is no need for classifiers since the class is no longer important. So heads up it is! LOL...my point exactly! But I know you are being somewhat sarcastic. Classification is a good thing. It measures progression when done honestly. The few shooters who are dishonest are just screwing themselves. But that shouldn't cause the whole group to be punished for the actions of a few shitheads. 5 years from now when you come into my trophy room you will be able to see a progression through the ranks in this sport....that is a guarantee! Edited January 27, 2014 by jabbermurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) If there is no need for a class win then there is no need for a class. The few shooters who are dishonest are just screwing themselves. 5 years from now when you come into my trophy room you will be able to see a progression through the ranks in this sport....that is a guarantee! Jab, you said you haven't shot a Major yet? Just wondering, what's your current classification? Unfortunately, the "few dishonest shooters" are NOT screwing themselves, In ANY Way. That's the point. Edited January 27, 2014 by Hi-Power Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I guess it's all been said on this topic. Some of us see a problem with the current situation, that could be partially rectified by a simple change, and others don't see any problem. Back to the range .... the thing is, we see the problem in a completely different way, and therefore see a different change to rectify it. I see sandbagging and bragging about class 'wins' as a slight problem, and my simple change to rectify it would be to stop recognizing class wins, and *especially* to stop rewarding them with prizes. Bang. Problem solved in 1 fell swoop, no changes to the excellent classification system needed! I think that idea is a bit demotivating for those trying to come up in the sport. If you can't be rewarded for winning your class, what is the purpose of designating a classification then? Why not let it be division separation only. Well, I'm definitely one of those trying to come up in the sport (shooting less than 2 yrs, just made , and I'm able to find my motivation in improving my percentages and simply doing better than I did before. But perhaps I am unusual. I understand why sandbagging makes some people feel better, and I get that lots of people are probably motivated by sandbagging, so I'm sure things will continue the way they are, and I'll continue to mock and lampoon those who try to sandbag in hopes of recouping some of their travel expenses by 'winning' their class, lol. (p.s. all kidding aside, your idea of awarding an extra classification score for a major match win is an excellent one. That makes a LOT of sense to me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 It would be helpful to most of those complaining about the current classification to read the classification rules and procedures that now exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) If there is no need for a class win then there is no need for a class. The few shooters who are dishonest are just screwing themselves. 5 years from now when you come into my trophy room you will be able to see a progression through the ranks in this sport....that is a guarantee! Jab, you said you haven't shot a Major yet? Just wondering, what's your current classification? Unfortunately, the "few dishonest shooters" are NOT screwing themselves, In ANY Way. That's the point. I shot the Hillbilly Classic in AR last fall, but it wasn't sanctioned. First Major will be AL Sectional. Then BITB, AR Sectional (as long as I can get the money up to send the check soon), and TN Sectional....and possibly one or two more, depending on work schedule. I am classified B...bought my first gun in Dec '12, started IDPA Feb '13 and USPSA July '13. I am only renewing my IDPA membership this year because I agreed to help set up and run the Tri-State this year. I would be higher B than what I am, but my director submitted my 2nd gun scores on a few classifiers, which put me lower. I emailed Val, and she said the scores have to be sent from the club head, even though the particular scores I am referring to are on the USPSA website. I have no intention of sand or grand. I want to be a contender, and I am motivated and dedicated. I will continue to practice, compete and improve....regardless what the organization chooses to do about matters such as this. But it would be nice to get some goodies along the way Edited January 27, 2014 by jabbermurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I guess it's all been said on this topic. Some of us see a problem with the current situation, that could be partially rectified by a simple change, and others don't see any problem. Back to the range .... the thing is, we see the problem in a completely different way, and therefore see a different change to rectify it. I see sandbagging and bragging about class 'wins' as a slight problem, and my simple change to rectify it would be to stop recognizing class wins, and *especially* to stop rewarding them with prizes. Bang. Problem solved in 1 fell swoop, no changes to the excellent classification system needed! I think that idea is a bit demotivating for those trying to come up in the sport. If you can't be rewarded for winning your class, what is the purpose of designating a classification then? Why not let it be division separation only. Well, I'm definitely one of those trying to come up in the sport (shooting less than 2 yrs, just made , and I'm able to find my motivation in improving my percentages and simply doing better than I did before. But perhaps I am unusual. I understand why sandbagging makes some people feel better, and I get that lots of people are probably motivated by sandbagging, so I'm sure things will continue the way they are, and I'll continue to mock and lampoon those who try to sandbag in hopes of recouping some of their travel expenses by 'winning' their class, lol. (p.s. all kidding aside, your idea of awarding an extra classification score for a major match win is an excellent one. That makes a LOT of sense to me.) Well I'll try to make it out West before I move up to A to kick your butt in B class, fair and square Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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