Prize table

[Joe4d]

Do away with prize tables all together, or at least do not use match fees to subsidize the prizes. I have seen some matches with very high entry fees go on and on about how great the prizes are gonna be and awarded in order of finish, then put out an appeal to C and D class shooters because none are signing up.yeh go figure. Quite a few big matches around I wont attend becasue the high match fees are being used for order of finish prize tables. If match entry fees are being used for prizes then class awards or random drawing must be used. If awards are all donation and sponsors then it's between the match staff and the sponsors. I say just lower the match fees to cover expenses and provide some profit for the host club,

[Seth]

Joe,

I'm not sure what big matches you're referring to, but neither the VA/MD Section match nor Area 8 purchased a single prize last year. Since I was responsible for virtually every prize that was on the table at Area 8, I'm 100% certain that I'm right.

Frankly, the insinuation is an insult to the outstanding vendors and manufacturers that donated their products to the matches. Those companies depend on their sponsorship of the match to further improve their marketing presence.

Regarding the original post,

While I initially believed that there should be a prize table awarded by order of finish, but it actually seems to contradict the intentions of the sponsors, who want to get their product in front of customers. My feeling now is that trophies are for recognizing finish and sponsor donations should be equally accessible to all.

Seth Markowitz

2009 VA/ MD Section Match Assistant Match Director

2009 Area 8 Assistant Match Director

Edited February 1, 2010 by Seth

[JThompson]

We are going to award the division winners first, then do a HOA Junior, Lady, (Senior/Super combined) and then all the guns that are left are going to be random drawn. So we are rewarding the merit and also the people who wouldn't otherwise have a shot.

Then of course you will have trophies for class winners down the line depending on cash available.

JT

Edited February 1, 2010 by JThompson

[badchad]

at the Duble Tap Championship We ran a Poll on our web site about 6 years ago and the Random Vs Order Ran right down the A / B Line.A and Above wanted order of finish Band below wanted randonm drawing. The B &C Shoters are the largest part of your match. But Folks that put in hard work should be reward also. So we Give away STI Frames to the Top two(2) Divison Winners and a STI Slide to the third place guy...

So the hard working 4th place guy gets screwed in order to appease the masses?

According to my brianenos.com poll, the overwhelming majority prefer and distribution based on merit as opposed as opposed to some Marxian distribution according to need.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71470&st=0

Edited February 1, 2010 by badchad

[mlmiller1]

Maybe give a big prize to the fourth place guy & the hard working fifth place gets screwed instead? What is the difference? You gotta stop somewhere in my opinion. If the 4th place guy had worked a little harder, he wouldn't have been 4th, would he?

I like the way Robert Porter does his awards. He spends good money buying nice awards. By the way, I am gonna win one of those crystal trophies one of these days. However, other "prizes" are just trinkets. Whether they be really nice gun bags, a chrono, or a follower for an STI mag or a tool set from harbor freight, it is still a trinket. I like winning trinkets but giving them away as some type of "payment" for doing well is foolish in my opinion. Give 'em by drawing/lottery. I do prefer that no or minimum match money is spent on "trinkets". Lower the cost, if that is what the money is going for. Furnish nice "awards" but don't buy a lot of stuff just so everyone has something they "won".

I also believe if a company/sponsor gives a big prize--guns for example-- they should be the one to determine how it is given away. If I had a gun business & gave your match a gun, I would want to have a say in how it is awarded.

Polls on BE don't really mean much in the big picture. Look at the poll talking about the uspsa president election before the vote. If the poll had meant anything, there would have been a different pres elected, by a large margin. Polls here only mean that the people here feel a particular way. That is all. Don't take them to mean anything more or less. Robert took a poll on his website. The site where lots of people that shoot in his matches visit. His results led him to do the awards & prizes in the way he does them. That means the people that shoot his matches got what they asked for. Doesn't mean that would be the same results you would get at your match or on your poll here.

Polls, statistics, & surveys mean very little......mostly they mean you asked a question in a way that would get the result you want.

Just MHO, that is all.

MLM

[badchad]

Maybe give a big prize to the fourth place guy & the hard working fifth place gets screwed instead? What is the difference? You gotta stop somewhere in my opinion.

Give the prizes order of finish and you don't have to stop till you run out of stuff. The better competitors get the spoils, just like every other sport.

By the way, I am gonna win one of those crystal trophies one of these days. However, other "prizes" are just trinkets. Whether they be really nice gun bags, a chrono, or a follower for an STI mag or a tool set from harbor freight, it is still a trinket.

As I recall, Area 2 gives out guns into 20 something place.

Polls on BE don't really mean much in the big picture.

Sure, only if you don't care what BEers think, or if you think a local poll is representative of shooters at large.

[mlmiller1]

I care what BErs think since I am one but I don't believe what the majority on here think is necessarily representative of the whole world. I also think polls on here are merely interesting. They say what we think as a group but that is about it.

Seems to me it will go on being each match director doing what he wants. We will either like it or we won't. Go to matches because of the prize distribution or not go because of it or in spite of it.

Speak your mind, or don't. You are speaking yours, I am speaking mine & neither of us is "right" or "wrong". It is all opinion. I will never be convinced of your opinion as you will never be of mine. Simple enough. Agree to disagree or not? Your choice.

MLM

[badchad]

I don’t know. The polls we have here overwhelmingly seem to favor “to the victor goes the spoils.” That’s a rating of opinions, I’ll grant you. But giving awards to those that have not earned them, rather than giving them to those who have worked hard and sacrificed (AT A SPORTING EVENT) just does not seem right. Anything else just seems to be the selfish opinions of losers. But like you said, agree to disagree.

[sslav]

So the hard working 4th place guy gets screwed in order to appease the masses?

According to my brianenos.com poll, the overwhelming majority prefer and distribution based on merit as opposed as opposed to some Marxian distribution according to need.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71470&st=0

Lets be honest here, your poll shows exactly the results you wanted it to show with the way you worded it. The careful wording makes it rather meaningless as a gauge of true opinion.

I am not sure what the fair way to distribute prizes is. Straight order of finish would bias it heavily towards Open. How things turn out for the sport in that scenario is already a matter of historic record so no reason to guess.

The question in my mind is whether prizes are there to reward the winners or to encourage participation?

As a match organizer I would want to see as many people shoot my match as I can potentially handle. As a sponsor I would rather see my name in front of 250 people than in front of 50 people so I would want maximum participation as well.

We have two sizable steel matches hosted at our club every year - one static and one knockdown. The entry fee is around $120. Local shooters can shoot almost identical matches on monthly bases by paying $20. Yet the turnout for these matches is always very high. Match organizer manage to put together a rather nice prize table and distribute the prizes via a random drawing. There are cash payouts using the Lewis System. Do you think they would get the same turnout if prize table and payouts went by the order of finish?

[Nik Habicht]

The polls we have here overwhelmingly seem to favor “to the victor goes the spoils.” That’s a rating of opinions, I’ll grant you.

And this forum is populated mainly by folks who strive to improve, i.e. are more likely to wind up winners at some point. I shoot matches every weekend with folks who are shooting to socialize, folks who are aware of the forum's existence, but couldn't be bothered to waste their time on it --- because their priorities are in a different place...

But giving awards to those that have not earned them, rather than giving them to those who have worked hard and sacrificed (AT A SPORTING EVENT) just does not seem right.

You have a point. (So do folks who prefer to dole out prizes by raffle....) When you decide to run a match with a prize table, you can do it your way.....

Anything else just seems to be the selfish opinions of losers. But like you said, agree to disagree.

Seems to me that a particular match polled its customer base and got an answer --- and they continue to run the match in that way....

[Nik Habicht]

We have two sizable steel matches hosted at our club every year - one static and one knockdown. The entry fee is around $120. Local shooters can shoot almost identical matches on monthly bases by paying $20. Yet the turnout for these matches is always very high. Match organizer manage to put together a rather nice prize table and distribute the prizes via a random drawing. There are cash payouts using the Lewis System. Do you think they would get the same turnout if prize table and payouts went by the order of finish?

If I were trying to build a successful. repetitive, big match, that's certainly the model I'd be looking at following, in order to fill/grow the match. Give away enough cash at the top, and you'll get interested competitors, give away/raffle off good prizes and you'll attract some of the folks who are subsidizing the match with their entry fees....

[Chuck Anderson]

Do you think they would get the same turnout if prize table and payouts went by the order of finish?

Yep, we do the same type of thing. Local match is $12.00. Annual "Man of Steel" championship is Order of finish with prizes and $55.00 (?) entry. Always overfills every year. If it's a good match, it will fill. If it's not, it won't. Prize distribution really doesn't have that much to do with the decisions of most shooters.

[sslav]

If it's a good match, it will fill. If it's not, it won't. Prize distribution really doesn't have that much to do with the decisions of most shooters.

I disagree. There is big difference in $55 entry fee and $120 entry fee. I might shoot the first one if it is close enough to make it a day trip. I am not going to bother with the second one unless I have an incentive to show. I'll go to another local match and shoot it for $20 and get the same amount of fun.

[scorch]

So the hard working 4th place guy gets screwed in order to appease the masses?

Bad CHad

Everyone gets something at our Match and alot of the the times its as much as you match fee.

Come On, how many SPORTING EVENTS you heard of that recognize more than third Place. Please, I have not heard To many folks running around Bragging they were FOURTH and on top of it he Might Get something off the Prize table he could really use.

Most folks that we award the Top stuff to Sell it before they leave the range and thats OK, its their Stuff after We hand it to them.

This is an endless debate, Just posted what we Do and It has worked well for us for 5 years. its a mix of Both Order and Random

[Corey]

I like the idea of a mixed prize distribution:

-Winner of the DIVISION get a nice prize (gun, cool reloading accessory, whatever). doesnt matter what class they are, if a C or D shoots his ass off and beats all the As, Ms, then good for him/her!

-I like the idea of plaques/trophies for CLASS winners. Why bother to sandbag down to get a piece of wood/glass??? If your life is that pathetic, you have bigger problems to deal with...

Other random donations, shooting related or not (hotel discounts, food, whatever) done at random.

This seems like a fair way for EVERYONE to be happy. You want thing on merit, win your division and get an awesome prize. Not good enough to win a division (like me right now), you can still have a nice little reward to show your friends if you can beat everyone in your level. Cant beat anyone in your level...you still could get a nice mag pouch or holster to help you the next match...

The good shooters get their guns on merit, the ok shooters get a chance to brag and the bad shooters dont walk away empty-handed and have the drive to come back stronger next time.

The End

[Codycoyote]

I'm just going to throw my opinion out there and it's only worth what you paid for it. For me personally I want nothing more than the chance to win a plaque that say's I won 1st in my class or my division. Would it be nice to win a gun or a reloading press or some other fancy thing, sure, but for me this sport is about me and how well I do. Match fees I think would be better spent on the ranges themselves. Some people think that $100 dollars is a high price for a 10-12 stage match. That may be, if your club sets up major match stages every month. My clubs don't. We don't have the man power or the free range space to do so. Every club you shoot at is inconvienced by a major match. The membership is losing their range time to accomodate a major match that will last one or two days for the shooters, but it's a week or more of lost range space for the paying members of the club. They should get the extra money after the set-up/plaque/food costs.

I look at it this way, and I'll use baseball to help me explain. In the early days of major league ball, players made peanuts, and often worked second jobs to make ends meet. They loved the game. They loved playing the game even though they knew they'd never be rich. Today, it's all about the money and recognition, very few players love the game so much that they play for peanuts.

That's the way to look at the prize table debate here. The people who truly love to shoot and spend time with fellow shooters, aren't worried about the prize table, they just want to play the game. Those who are worried about the prize table have forgotten about the fun of shooting a large match and spending time with fellow shooter. At least that is the way it comes off to me.

I would rather have someone that has been at the game for a long time and has won several matches come up to me and say "hey, that was a really good match you just shot." Give me a good plaque and a hand shake and I'll leave with a smile. Let me see someone who hands down beat me get a plaque and a hand shake, and I'll leave happy. I just love to shoot and play these games we play, nothing more, nothing less.

Just my thoughts, feel free to bash me or ignore me.

[WDB]

I'm just going to throw my opinion out there and it's only worth what you paid for it. For me personally I want nothing more than the chance to win a plaque that say's I won 1st in my class or my division. Would it be nice to win a gun or a reloading press or some other fancy thing, sure, but for me this sport is about me and how well I do. Match fees I think would be better spent on the ranges themselves. Some people think that $100 dollars is a high price for a 10-12 stage match. That may be, if your club sets up major match stages every month. My clubs don't. We don't have the man power or the free range space to do so. Every club you shoot at is inconvienced by a major match. The membership is losing their range time to accomodate a major match that will last one or two days for the shooters, but it's a week or more of lost range space for the paying members of the club. They should get the extra money after the set-up/plaque/food costs.

I look at it this way, and I'll use baseball to help me explain. In the early days of major league ball, players made peanuts, and often worked second jobs to make ends meet. They loved the game. They loved playing the game even though they knew they'd never be rich. Today, it's all about the money and recognition, very few players love the game so much that they play for peanuts.

That's the way to look at the prize table debate here. The people who truly love to shoot and spend time with fellow shooters, aren't worried about the prize table, they just want to play the game. Those who are worried about the prize table have forgotten about the fun of shooting a large match and spending time with fellow shooter. At least that is the way it comes off to me.

I would rather have someone that has been at the game for a long time and has won several matches come up to me and say "hey, that was a really good match you just shot." Give me a good plaque and a hand shake and I'll leave with a smile. Let me see someone who hands down beat me get a plaque and a hand shake, and I'll leave happy. I just love to shoot and play these games we play, nothing more, nothing less.

Just my thoughts, feel free to bash me or ignore me.

+1

[hitman]

I went to a match where they had cash payout for class winners and the prize table they turned around.

They had 133 items and they went from the 133rd to #1 and they didnt tell anyone till it was table time.

I thought it was a good shake up of the sand badggers and some new shooters walked with good stuff.

I dont shoot for prize table or money so it dosent matter to me.

[jmorris]

I remember a match; I think it was in Lubbock that someone donated a rifle to the prize table (IIRC the best prize to boot). They did not shoot the match or were there but asked that it be awarded to the slowest shooter that finished. I always thought that was cool. You just can’t do it every year or you will have someone super sandbag after a few stages just to go away with something.

[Doug S]

I have been lucky enough to attend a major 3-gun match for the last three years and the prize table at this match has been awesome!

Each division gets it's own prize table and approximately 10% of the prizes on each table are guns, gun certificates, frames or ammo. The remaining 90% of the prizes are in sealed bags that you get to pick at random. The first place finisher for the division is awarded a cash prize then the second gets his choice of any of the prizes and so on by order of finish for the division. The first place finisher does not always get the best prize, I think our division winner received $2000 cash but there was a .50 cal rifle that lists for $3500 that went on the prize table! I would change it a little to allow the first place finisher to have a pick at the prize table or the cash, if they took a prize then the cash would go on the table for another competitor! Another change I would make to this system is to openly award a firearm for the top 3 finishers and then place certificates for the remaining firearms into the sealed bags. That would allow every one in a division to have a chance at a firearm.

Some of the prizes were to large to fit into the bags, like a Hornady reloader, so you could pick it and hope for more goodies in the bag. Another prize that was to big for the bag was a hard rifle case but it was loaded with smaller items that you could not look at unless you picked it as your prize.

I am a "stuck in C class" shooter and have won some GREAT prizes in the grab bags (Tasco T-1 with a Larue mount)(VLTOR MUR-1 upper) and last year I made it to within 10 places of winning a firearm! I have a friend that competes with us and he has a disability that limits his movements, so he usually finishes towards the bottom of his division but he has won 2 CQT's over the years with this system!

I believe in awarding the the top 3 finishers in a division for thier performance with a trophy and a really nice prize. I also think this would eliminate sandbagging since the only guarantee to winning a firearm is to be one of the top 3 competitors. Plus, it gives us "stuck in C class" shooters a chance at a firearm!

[John Z Sr]

I'm just going to throw my opinion out there and it's only worth what you paid for it. For me personally I want nothing more than the chance to win a plaque that say's I won 1st in my class or my division. Would it be nice to win a gun or a reloading press or some other fancy thing, sure, but for me this sport is about me and how well I do. Match fees I think would be better spent on the ranges themselves. Some people think that $100 dollars is a high price for a 10-12 stage match. That may be, if your club sets up major match stages every month. My clubs don't. We don't have the man power or the free range space to do so. Every club you shoot at is inconvienced by a major match. The membership is losing their range time to accomodate a major match that will last one or two days for the shooters, but it's a week or more of lost range space for the paying members of the club. They should get the extra money after the set-up/plaque/food costs.

I look at it this way, and I'll use baseball to help me explain. In the early days of major league ball, players made peanuts, and often worked second jobs to make ends meet. They loved the game. They loved playing the game even though they knew they'd never be rich. Today, it's all about the money and recognition, very few players love the game so much that they play for peanuts.

That's the way to look at the prize table debate here. The people who truly love to shoot and spend time with fellow shooters, aren't worried about the prize table, they just want to play the game. Those who are worried about the prize table have forgotten about the fun of shooting a large match and spending time with fellow shooter. At least that is the way it comes off to me.

I would rather have someone that has been at the game for a long time and has won several matches come up to me and say "hey, that was a really good match you just shot." Give me a good plaque and a hand shake and I'll leave with a smile. Let me see someone who hands down beat me get a plaque and a hand shake, and I'll leave happy. I just love to shoot and play these games we play, nothing more, nothing less.

Just my thoughts, feel free to bash me or ignore me.

+1

Very well said, YOU are the reason most of us love to shoot