smokshwn Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 My gear for limited, open, and 3gun is pretty well sorted out and its winter time in Utah. So I am looking forward to the next project of putting together gear for Manually Operated Rifle. I think I have the gun figured out but optics are another story. I know next to nothing when it comes to using your scope for ranging, lead, etc. My history has been put the crosshairs on the shoulder and squeeze. So here are a couple of questions: 1) I know optical quality plays a role, but assuming a quality manufacturer, how much optical power is ideal? 3.5X10, 4.5X14, 5.5X15, 6.5X20. 2) Rings and bases: I know the Badger Ordnance and similar stuff is well regarded in the sniper community, but is there some middle ground which is acceptable for MOR? 3) Reticles: Horus Vision or Mil Dots? Illuminated or not? I can see how useful the Horus vision system is but that scope seems awful busy. Would it be better bite the bullet and learn to use it or is it helpful to develop skills with mil dots and then move forward to the HV system? 4) The 1 million dollar question: Given a $1000-$1200 budget for glass, rings, and bases, what's your pick? Yeehaw bring it on. Thanx, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paraman1 Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Look at the TPS Rings , They are very high quality and a lot less expensive than the Badgers (65 bucks) , Midway USA is having a Leupold sale on the 6.5-20 and the 8.5-25 LR models (triple trick , side focus , Mil dot , 30mm tube models) for 669 and 699 respectively . Heck with that being said pick up the Badger base and rings and you are still under a grand . Its the set up on my MOR / Tactical rifle and it flat out kicks butt while being just about bomb proof . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Go with Badgers. I have a pair of the TPS and they are not even in the same league as the Badgers, USO type rings. HV seems to be the ticket for glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 After watching Charles ‘Tater Moots clean both of the LD sidematch stages at the RM3G with an AICS setup topped with a Horusvision scope, I now know what works. As far as magnification goes, I ran the same stages with a Leupold Vari-X 3.5-10x with duplex reticle and I was fine on the 18” plate at 640 yards, it was the real small pieces of steel at 300-500 yards where I really wished for 16x plus. I had target knobs on my loopold and had to pull off it to crank on pre-marked handfuls of clicks during the runs and when you are trying to be quick about it, that is not quick. But eyeball holdover is just not gonna work on stuff like this. Mildot may be competitive if you are real good at it. Horus rocks the house PERIOD BTW, Charles Moots and Matt Burkett each ran several clean passes on those stages which featured 4” and 6” steel at oddball ranges like 345 and 470 yards. By clean passes I mean, 1 shot and a hit on every single piece of steel. They also made those clean passes in incredibly short time frames. If you tried those stages, you will know they were no mean feat even if you were taking your sweet time. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Sounds like that Burkett kid is not a bad little shooter. Did he use the Horus Vision gizmo too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Did he use the Horus Vision gizmo too? Yeah, he used Tate’s rifle to beat his time, Then Tater beat that time, then Matt sliced some time off that, then Mr. Moots sliced more time off Matt’s best run and that was that for the sidematch. No one else got even close to those two. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 7, 2004 Author Share Posted December 7, 2004 Well the research has been done. I just don't see a better option than the HV. I was hoping I could find an optik that would perform in a similar way (and also be plentiful in the classifieds on the sniper sites) but alas it is looking as not so. Now the next big question, are box mags absolutely necessary and if so in what round counts? I'm trying to justify that AICS. Good thing I'm only trying to convince myself as I usually win Take care, Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 MOR is limited to 5 rounds. AICS mags are 5 or 10 your choice. AI AE mags are 5. Tac-pro is the best place to get the AI stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) are box mags absolutely necessary and if so in what round counts? Hi Craig, Yes, box mags also rule the roost. I am using a fixed mag rifle and after the first five my shot to shot times increase by over 2 seconds to chuck one in as opposed to just working the bolt and staying on the scope. The difference can be huge on a stage with 10 or more required rounds if there is not a lot of movement involved. As far as capacity, 5 is all you really need as USPSA mandates no more than five rounds loaded at any time for MOR (at least they used to) and IIRC the RM3G had a similar limit to level the playing field. But, box mags are only a big advantage if they work and can be changed easily. -- Regards, Edited December 8, 2004 by George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Would the box mags on CZ rifles work okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 I'm gathering that the box mags are about the only way to go and it is sounding like AI is pretty much the only game as far as a high lever of reliability, decent availability of goodies (although spendy). The AICS seems like the most viable in that you get a all of bells and whistles of the exotic euro stuff but with a base platform that most any 'smith is capable of working on. (for everybody following this thread, I think I'm winning the argument, "Hello, this Alice at Tacpro shooting center, may I help you?" ) I have heard that HS Precisions mags are reliable but difficult to change due to the o-ring configuration??? anybody else know of anything? It's hard to get an accurate appraisal of the Sig, Tikka, or Sako stuff because so few people are using them, not to mention I would think extra mags, scope mounts, blah blah blah are a little harder to find and probably $$$$$ when you do. Rhino, I haven't been able to find anyone shooting the CZ's but there are a couple of nice looking setups on Gunbroker. Are you happy with yours? I have heard of a couple of local LEO guys using the FN SPR setup and I am waiting for them to get back to me. This gun sounds promising, mags work well, and FN puts a lifetime guarantee on it to include the barrel. So when you shoot out the barrel, send it in and voila! new barrel. I don't know if it is only for agencies or if they would do that on a private customer gun as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Do not get the HS Precision mags for MOR. I haven't shot MOR yet, but have shot the ITRC a couple of times, so my experience is from that. I have a HS detachable mag on one of my 308s. The mag release is small, inside the trigger guard, the mags do not drop free. Bad choice for rapid reloads. No first hand experience with the AI stuff, but I have heard so much good about them that I don't think you could go wrong. AI is not the only game in town, though. I prefer the Tubb 2000. Reloads like an AR-15, mags drop free, 20 rounders available if you decide to shoot some other game (ITRC). It is also a 3 minute task to swap barrels yourself, so you can have one with a JP tank brake, one with a suppressor, different calibers. It is very fun. The trigger is awesome, and the bolt cycles well. May not be as field durable as the AI, this is definitely a match gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Rhino, I haven't been able to find anyone shooting the CZ's but there are a couple of nice looking setups on Gunbroker. Are you happy with yours? I'll have to let you know when I get one. I asked because I'm thinking of getting one in .308. My little CZ 452 "Scout" .22LR shoots so well that it makes me think their centerfire rifles might be in the same league. If that's true, that's a lot of excellent rifle for not a lot of money. The fact that they can be had with detachable magazines is a bonus and if they work well, it seems like a potential choice for MOR for someone who is on a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 I prefer the Tubb 2000 Ditto there John. I have only handled one at a local High Power match, but that was enough. I only have 700 buckeroo’s in my MOR rifle right now, 400 for the loopold glass, 200 for the JP Tank brake and install and 100 for the Timney trigger and install, the rest of it is a beater hunting rifle I had. When I have some real cash for a real MOR setup, it’s gonna be a Tubb in 6mm sumthinorother with a Horus scope riding on top.I do not see why a Tubb wouldn’t be reliable in the field. There is nothing flimsy about it’s construction and I see no reason it‘s action shouldn’t be just as reliable as a rem700 based system. Anyone know sumthin’ about the Tubb I don’t?--Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 The AI's can swap barrels also. The AE doesn't but the rest do. The AI stuff was built as a combat SWS not a Comp gun. They are built like a tank and will take a hell of a beating. The Tubb uses SR-25 mags which hopefully with the demise of the AWB will be more plentiful and better priced. The lighter cal. is ok for punching paper but if there is long heavy steel like Larue's forget it. The Sako trg22 is another good option. Running about 2300 plus the access. It all depends on how deep the pockets are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 Rhino, my bad I thought you already had one. George, I would love to hear about the Tubb in an MOR environment as well. I'm sure the action and such would be fine, but to my eye the buttstock at best looks like it would be snagging on gear and at worst looks a little vulnerable to getting knocked out of adjustment or breakage. Chris, I agree with you on the wonder 6mm's. They are ballistically superior to the .308 but rebarreling every 1500 rds seems like a pain. Do you know of anyone running the Sako's or Tikka's it seems they are few and far between. My ffl is Blaser dealer so of course when I bought my Remington he was giving me the line about Blaser lr92 and Sig 3000, so I told him to get one in and let me shoot it for 6 mos and I would let him know what I thought. I think he's still on the floor laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 The thing I worry about on my Tubb is the trigger. It is super sweet, and super adjustable. I think I have it maxed out for sear engagement and pull weight, and it is still only 2.5 pounds. I loctited everything, but some of the adjustments seemed a little delicate, especially the one that lets you sldie the trigger fore and aft. The bolt itself looks puny as hell, but if you read Tubb's book, you find out that was for a reason. I'm sure it is plenty strong. I think the Tubb is just the ticket for MOR, ITRC, "sniper" matches, but if I were going to Iraq, I'd want an AI, M24, M40, M1 Abrams, etc. over the Tubb. For all I know the Anshutz trigger may be hella stout, but that wasn't my vibe after messing with it a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I loctited everything, but some of the adjustments seemed a little delicate, especially the one that lets you slide the trigger fore and aft Thanks John, that is good to know. I still agree that it would be just the ticket for all the games we play, including the ITRC. If I am gonna drop 3k into something, I want it to be as single purpose as possible -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Craig, Bill H was running a Sako IIRC. I just picked up the TRG 42 in .338 LM. I'm waiting on ammo or the damn bullets to come. Got dies and brass. The whole system is cool as hell. You can tear the whole gun apart pretty easily. Trigger is adjustable for everything. Everyone I've talked to has good things to say about the accuracy and reliability. Since it is the issued Finnish Sniper rifle I'm sure it will take a beating and hold up in the cold. Durability is rarely an issue. If the 700 in a MCM stock can hold up to the beating it gets in the Corps I doubt if it will break in the civilian world. Since I have to future plans to jump out of any more perfectly good airplanes, I'm not worried about my rifle breaking. If your FFL jumps on that deal pick me up a AI AW to play with too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Either the CZ or the Tikka will work well. The Tikka tactical prints 1/2 moa out to 600 yrds. and I made a brake for it so recoil is like a 22-250. Shot it at the RM3G for my first MOR match and had a respectable finish. The mags work very well and its reasonable in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 11, 2004 Author Share Posted December 11, 2004 George Exactly in a world of more and more do everything products here we are tryin our damndest to spend the most money for the most narrow of uses Chris, That TRG is a georgeos gun I'm jealous. Keep us posted. Bronco, I finally ran onto a post yday about the Tikkas and something to add is this gentleman has two. His suggestion was that a significantly lower price he got the same performance from Tikka's Varmint model. Good to know if one is on a budget. By the way I was going to go ahead and get the $1000.00 version of the Horus but I went shooting yday with a buddy's buddy who happens to have a USO SN3. I guess I will be saving a few more schekels before my HV purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 I am using a Tubb in 6XC. I also have a Remington 700 in 6x284 in an AICS Stock. The Tubb reloads a lot faster and easier. The 6x284 just slays coyotes and foxes now. We shoot MOR side matches every month with MGM Flash Targets out to 425. We usually have four to five shots from five to six different posistions. Not all of them prone. Usually a barricade and a two foot tall wall or two to shoot over. I am lucky enough to shoot with Cheryl Current and Eddie Rhodes most months. I stuck a brake on my Tubb. Takes the minimal recoil of the 6XC down to just about nothing. The rifle itself is a tank when you add a scope. I lightened the barrel contour down a pound. That helped quite a bit with offhand. When this barrel goes, I am going to replace it with a #3 contour Lilja. I have a Nightforce 5.5-22 on top with Leupold PRW rings. At 12 power I have it sighted dead on at 400 yards. One hash mark up from the crosshair is dead on at 200. For 300 I just hold a less than halfway between the two. I also have ranges marked the elevation turret out to 800 if I need to shoot something at a range that I dont feel comfortable with hold overs/unders. I start with 10 round mags and try to reload into 20 round mags. All of the 20's needed to be worked a bit to ensure they dropped free. The 10's drop free no problem. I am somewhat rough on my equipment (borderline clumsy) and havent had a bit of an issue with the trigger. They may look delicate because you can see all the parts, but they are plenty strong. I have a couple hard kicking silhouette pistols that have them and they are still going strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 11, 2004 Author Share Posted December 11, 2004 Finally a review on the Tubb. Thanx Tom. Now, since that AICS is such a clunker, I can give you a hand in getting rid of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Worried about the weight with a NF 5.5 x22 on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 11, 2004 Author Share Posted December 11, 2004 Weight? If it was in .308 wouldn't he be in HE-MAN division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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