In the box

[ima45dv8]

Bruce Gary made a point in the thread about guns starting (flat or not) on the table using an analogy to starting positions in shooting boxes. He said, "When we say that the shooter must do something from within the box, that means that he cannot be touching the ground anywhere outside the box...because he can't be both "in" the box and touching [the] ground outside the box. Standing on his tip-toes is OK. Foot on the top surface of the box structure is OK (unless the briefing specifically says otherwise). Standing with feet shoulder-width apart is OK."

My question is with the statement, "Foot on the top surface of the box structure is OK (unless the briefing specifically says otherwise)."

I was taught that starting with the feet (or a foot) up on the top surface of the box was not "in the box." I was told it's OK for a shooter to move their feet there once the start signal is given, but could not start that way.

I just want to get this right for future reference. I thought I knew, but now I'm not so sure.

So far I haven't been able to find a specific rule reference that clarifies it one way or the other. Is there one?

Thanks...

[RKooi]

I know you were probably looking for input from outside your normal shooting cadre, but what the heck. A box is 4 fault lines. If I am not faulting any of those four lines, I'm in compliance with the start position. My foot (or feet) on top of the 'line' without touching the ground outside means I'm OK. If the stage designer wants to prohibit such, then he or she should be very specific in regard to start position and where ones feet should be.

p.s. good luck with the SS tomorrow!

[LPatterson]

I am probably going to get my hand slapped by someone, but here goes anyway.

In USPSA the name of the game is freestyle first and everything else second. The shooter may know the intent of the COF designer but if it is not specificly prohibited then it is allowed. Lets look at some rules:

1.1.5 <snip> Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads NOR DICTATE A SHOOTING POSITION OR STANCE, except as specificed below. However, conditions may be created <snip> to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

2.2.1.2 Fault lines <snip> are deemed to extend rearwards to infinity. No where does it say that they extend vertically to infinity.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground BEYOND a Fault or Charge Line will receive 1 procedural penalty.

Therefore in a course of fire you would not receive a penalty for standing on a charge or fault line only for touching the ground on the wrong side. So how is that any different than the starting box. Look at the rules as a document that tells you what you CAN NOT do instead of what you can do.

Opinion is subject to review and reinterpretation before Area 1.

[Gary Stevens]

From my own perspective the difference in all of this is this is the start position. No shots have been fired as of yet. After the start signal one is free to do as they wish within the written guidelines.

I simply will not start the course of fire until the shooter is in the appropriate start position which I will demonstrate during the walk through. Other than that no start signal.

My 2 cents worth, your mileage may differ.

[RKooi]

OK Gary, we aren't going to let you go at just that...

If the starting position merely states 'standing in the box", do you agree that I am in the box if I am not out of the box? I am not out of the box unless I am touching the ground outside of it, right?

I understand what you mean (I think); if during the walkthrough you read the procedure and demonstrate your version of what in the box means to each and every shooter then that is in the box. I just think it is easier to be more specific in the stage description's start position. If you want both feet on the ground in the box then just say it there.

[Tman33_99]

As RM, or CRO, spell it out exactly in words what you want the start position to be. After that it is up to the competitors to comply and the RO to ensure that what is "written" is followed, and not what was intended nor what the RO "thinks" is intended. If it is "required" it "must" be written down.

For example. Start position is seated in chair at table, loaded gun on table. If the start position does not say where the chair can be put, there is nothing to prevent a competitor from moving the chair from the uprange side of the table to the side of the table or anywhere else, as long as the chair is at the table.

It that is not what is intended, then it needs to be written "Seated in chair on uprange side of table, knees under table, back against chair, arms folded across chest. Loaded gun is on side on "X" on table, with no propping by any artificial means"

The RO is there to enforce the rules and stage procedures as written. If we want the RO to bring in their own intent of the rules then we need to adopt the FTDR.

Travis

[warpspeed]

What if I'm standing on one leg and that one leg is inside the box but the other half of my body is suspended in mid air outside the box? Beep goes off and I'm off to the races. Is there any rule that states I must have both feet on the ground?

[Tman33_99]

What if I'm standing on one leg and that one leg is inside the box but the other half of my body is suspended in mid air outside the box? Beep goes off and I'm off to the races. Is there any rule that states I must have both feet on the ground?

Legal, but you get nailed w/a procedural for creeping.....sounds a lot like creeping to me, especially if you are trying to time the beep of the clock with this suspended body trick

[omnia1911]

What if I'm standing on one leg and that one leg is inside the box but the other half of my body is suspended in mid air outside the box? Beep goes off and I'm off to the races. Is there any rule that states I must have both feet on the ground?

Legal, but you get nailed w/a procedural for creeping.....sounds a lot like creeping to me, especially if you are trying to time the beep of the clock with this suspended body trick

Creeping requires movement.

10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the

firearm, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving

to a more advantageous shooting position, posture or stance after

the “Standby” command and prior to issuance of the start signal,

will incur 1 procedural penalty. If the Range Officer can stop the

competitor in time, a warning will be issued for the first offense

and the competitor will be restarted

If the competitor is holding the position until the start signal, I would let it go.

[skeeter]

if you started one of my stages with one foot in the air half in the box. i'd wait for you to wiggle a little, perferably away from where you wanted to go then give you a procedural for creeping.

[Tman33_99]

Skeeter,

The role of an RO is to not beat the shooter over the head w/the rule book. It is to 1) ensure safety and 2) ensure fair enforcement of the rules. If a procedural is warrented give it, but as ROs we should not try to "wait for just the instance to hit the start button so we can give a procedural". This is an attitude in the RO corps that should not be there.

Travis

[omnia1911]

I was taught that starting with the feet (or a foot) up on the top surface of the box was not "in the box." I was told it's OK for a shooter to move their feet there once the start signal is given, but could not start that way.

I would think that you need to have at least one foot on the ground in the box to be considered "in the box", or at least one foot on the ground outside of the box to be considered "out of the the box , or you are going to have some problems. If you have both feet on the box structure or both feet in the air, you can't be in or out of the box.

I see the box structure (the 2x4 or 2x2 fault lines) as a neutral zone, much like having one foot in the air. Otherwise, the functionality of those 4 fault lines doesn't work. You have to be allowed to step on a fault line while crossing it in either direction (coming or going) without penalty. We also need to be able to step on the box structure when entering a box and not get penalized for being "in the box".

[Gary Stevens]

I hear you Roger and I understand what you are saying. However, on one of my stages that problem won't exist. Freestyle kicks in on the buzzer, but until I blow it, it gets set the same for everyone.

As I teach RO courses I am amazed and appaled by some of the war stories I hear in class. Makes me wonder sometimes. Treating people like one would like to be treated isn't that hard, but it seems to be a problem with some individuals, shooters and RO's.

[ima45dv8]

Roger – I get what you’re saying. I LOVE the freestyle aspect of this sport (Gaming rules!). That’s why I felt a little foolish when I realized the way I had been led to understand start positions in boxes (both feet on the ground) was not really freestyle.

**You will be at the SingleStack match tomorrow, right?

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Graywolf68 (I owe you one) – No hand slapping from me. I like your view of using the rule to tell us what we CAN’T do instead of what we CAN do. I like that philosophy a lot. Consider it “borrowed.”

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Gary – I see where you’re coming from. As the CRO on a stage, if you demonstrate a start position to me, you’ll get it. I’ll be hoping you get the same from everyone else. And if you’re stationed at a given stage (ala, State or Area or Nat match), I’m sure everyone will start the same. My question is what happens in a local monthly club match where the ROs float with their squad. It seems like there could be multiple interpretations of what constitutes “in the box” as a starting position.

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Travis – I agree with the idea of spelling out as clearly as possible in the stage briefing what you want from the shooters. I’m not advocating having the ROs “interpret” the stage briefing (ugly comment about the Failure To Dudley-Do-Right penalty excused ).

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omnia1911 – That’s an interesting perspective on the fault lines being a neutral zone. If you start on it, you’re on it, not in it. I don’t know if the Rule Gods (aka, Amidon and Pinto) will agree, but it is something to consider.

Lots of good responses so far, but I still feel conflicted. I guess I’ll send Mr. Amidon an email and ask his view on this.

…Mark

[omnia1911]

[ima45dv8]

Jim,

It's not clear who your question was directed to, but I'll take a stab at it. Rule 3.2.1 under section 3.2, "Written Stage Briefings".

"3.2.1 A written stage briefing approved by the Range Master must be posted at each course of fire prior to commencement of the match. This briefing will take precedence over any course of fire information published or otherwise communicated to competitors in advance of the match, and it must provide the following minimum information:

--Scoring Method:

--Targets (type and number):

--Minimum number of rounds:

--The handgun ready condition:

--Start position:

--Time starts: audible or visual signal:

--Procedure:"

I think the above gives the RM the power to tell you or anyone else where they need to be standing. As I'm sure you do, we usually use X's or some other mark to indicate the desired place to stand. Of course, sometimes we leave it entirely up to the shooter by not specifying any particular place at all.

...Mark

[Chuck Anderson]

Thats an interesting position that you have Gary. I have started with a foot on top of the box at several matches, including several Nationals and Area matches. The only people that I have even heard argue about that not being a valid start position are some local guys. And they're normally the ones that try to DQ people for having a magazine on the belt in the safety area. I'm not sure who you instructed to be an RO but I have never had a Nationals staff member even question this start.

[Flexmoney]

We have had a thread or two on this in the past. A search might turn it up. (I'm too tired to do it for you right now. Maybe another moderator will beat me to it and merge these two thread.)

Anyway...Amdon had posted an answer to what was "in the box" on the USPSA website...

[Jim Norman]

Mark, you contradicted yourself with in your post. First you say that the rule says the RO has the power to tell you where and how to start andn then you go on to say that sometimes you leave it up to the shooter. Interestingly, I think we all do the same.

My earlier post was in reply to Gary where he said:

From my own perspective the difference in all of this is this is the start position.  No shots have been fired as of yet.  After the start signal one is free to do as they wish within the written guidelines.

I simply will not start the course of fire until the shooter is in the appropriate start position which I will demonstrate during the walk through. Other than that no start signal.

My 2 cents worth, your mileage may differ.

I think you can see that you and I agree, but the above indicats that at this venue, you will be told where you must stand, regardless of the ambiguity of the WSB.

We agree BTW that IF the WSB says Heels touching X's Facing Downrange, Hands folded across the chest and touching the opposite shoulder, that the RO has the authority to have you assume that position.

My argument comes in when the WSB is deliberately left open ended. Standing in Free Fire Zone A as an example. If I am actually standing up on my own two feet in FFZ A, then how does an RO justify telling me that “well everyone else started over here, so you have to as well? Since I may have seen a different path through the COF, my start position may facilitate that and that is FREESTYLE.

Do I think such an open ended start is good? Yes, and then again No. I would not want all starts to be so open , I want to tell you that you must sit behind the table, with your knees under the table, holding the cigar in your left hand and your drink in your right, and that your back must be against the back of the chair and your feet must be flat on the ground.

I also want to in other cases set up a stage that has no easily discernable Best pathway through, so I want to be able to say heels touching rear fault line, or standing inside FFZ A.

When I write the second, any position inside FFZA meets the WSB so the RO has no business amending it. On the other hand, when I write the first, more detailed WSB, then I expect the RO to ensure conformity.

I would not want to see a rule written that forbids or mandates either. Freestyle can and does extend all the way to the start position in a PROPERLY designed COF.

Jim Norman

[RKooi]

here

[omnia1911]

Depending on how ambiguously the start position is worded, 8.2.2 will at a minimum require you to stand erect, facing down range, with arms hanging naturally at sides.

The RO cannot require a start position other than the one written in the stage briefing, and what 8.2.2 requires. If the match officials want a specific start position, they have to write it down; not just verbalize it, and not just demonstrate it. If it is not written down, the competitor is free to improvise, as long as he stays within the rules.

[omnia1911]

here

Amidon did make a ruling on the question of being in or out of a box, but with the new rulebook coming out, all of the old rulings have been removed from the USPSA website.

[RKooi]

I agree, Omnia. Let's boil it down then; gereric 'standing in box facing downrange, arms relaxed at sides.' I enter the box and put my right foot on top of the 2x2 frame(no contact on the outside.) My left foot is flat on the ground inside the box. Am I in the box? Do you start me in this position?

I say yes.

[omnia1911]

I agree, Omnia. Let's boil it down then; gereric 'standing in box facing downrange, arms relaxed at sides.' I enter the box and put my right foot on top of the 2x2 frame(no contact on the outside.) My left foot is flat on the ground inside the box. Am I in the box? Do you start me in this position?

I say yes.

I say you are in the box, and I would start you.

I would also add that your left foot doesn't necessarily have to be flat on the ground. As long as some portion of it is touching the ground, I would start you (Bruce mentioned tip toes).

Standing erect (8.2.2) doesn't mean both feet flat on the ground, at least it doesn't to me. Are we going to officially define "standing erect" in the rulebook?

[omnia1911]

An interesting question comes to mind.

How much ambiguity has to be in the written start position before 8.2.2s requirements are to take effect? If the start position is "standing in shooting area", do you also have to be standing erect, facing down range, with arms hanging naturally at sides? If it the start position is " facing up range in shooting area", can you also be crouched over and holding on to a nearby railing, if the stage design makes that particular position more advantageous?

It seems to me that a stage designer would be trying to keep faith with the freestyle philosophy of IPSC by writing a start position such as, "from within the shooting area engage the targets as they become visible", but 8.2.2 overrides this freestyle start position by then requiring the shooter to stand erect, facing down range, with arms hanging naturally at sides. If the shooter isn't breaking any rules, why get in the way of his improvisations?