When do you let go...

[GrumpyOne]

At my work, we have standards, set by the customer, that we have to follow. These standards are black and white, very little ambiguity in them. If we don't folow them, and the job gets audited for quality, my company can be held financially responsible for correcting the defect, and also for loss of revenue from the defect.

When you see something that doesn't follow the standard, point it out to the boss, and are told to shut up and keep quiet about it, do you? When do you just let it go, and not care anymore? The defect in question is very likely not going to be caught, but does it make a difference?

I have a very hard time with this...it's much like USPSA rules to me...there is a right and a wrong, but the stakes in this game are much higher than in USPSA...

I was brought up to have integrity, to be honest, to do the best job you could do, and to be proud of your work. Shutting up about a known issue just rubs me the wrong way...

[RammerJammer]

I do financial management for the federal government. I feel your pain. I was depressed for a long time about it then I just decided to do the best that I could at my assigned job (even though sometimes that feels wrong) and try to ignore what goes on around me. I can't change them. I can't fix it but I refuse to be one of them.

[Youngeyes]

That's a real tough question. Since I'm the boss it rarely comes up. Keep fighting the good fight when you can. Don't take yourself out of the game by getting canned over a fight you can't win with an a$$hole who will dig his own hole. You'll outlast the guy. As you said, you were raised to do the best you can. Sometimes you may not be as happy with that job as you'd like. If it didn't rub you the wrong way you would be like your boss.

[Toolguy]

Methinks you have keen insight for such Young eyes!

[thermobollocks]

Federal contractor here. What our customer writes down usually differs from what they want. What our customer wants changes on a daily basis. We basically do whatever they want, laugh, and then go drink heavily.

[Systemstooge]

When told to be quiet - Oh hell no.

If I believe I understand the requirements, and what is being delivered does not meet those requirements, either explain to me what I am misunderstanding or I am going to push until ether someone reacts, the requirements change or explains to me what I am missing.

I have faced similar issues several times and the few times I remember not pursuing the issue, it has in some manner come back to bite ME.

SS

[Toolguy]

I have been in that situation a few times and twice I got canned and replaced by a "yes man" who just did whatever they were told to do. It depends on where you work and how bad you need that particular job, how hard you can push back.

[Sarge]

IMHO I gave up long ago. One of my CSM's along the way told me that I can't fix or change everything no matter how F'ed up it is. He said change the things I can and don't lose sleep over the rest of it. That has stuck with me all these years and seems to work for me.

[bountyhunter]

At my work, we have standards, set by the customer, that we have to follow. These standards are black and white, very little ambiguity in them. If we don't folow them, and the job gets audited for quality, my company can be held financially responsible for correcting the defect, and also for loss of revenue from the defect.

When you see something that doesn't follow the standard, point it out to the boss, and are told to shut up and keep quiet about it, do you? When do you just let it go, and not care anymore? The defect in question is very likely not going to be caught, but does it make a difference?

I have a very hard time with this...

So did I. I worked 33 years as an electrical engineer and this always bothered me. When I worked at Power Ten, we built power supplies for military contracts. In a couple of cases, they shipped them with catastrophic defects. I often wondered when the FBI would come looking, but they got away with it.

The worst was working at national Semiconductor where it was required that I flat out lie to people. That bothered me more than anything else. I did push back in several cases and it got me on the scut list there. In several cases, I informed them I would no longer lie to other National employees: when they asked me why the parts were failing, I was going to tell them the truth.

In the case of customers, like doing failure analysis reports, I was always forced to put together whatever steaming pile of BS that fit the cover story.

There were several instances where we were continuously shipping parts with known defects and when a big customer had a bunch of failures, I was supposed to pretend we never heard of the problem and gin up some phoney story.

One of the lessons I learned from my career was just how easily most people lie to each other. I never acquired that talent.

You should not worry if you have a hard time doing this. Worry if you don't.

Edited December 17, 2013 by bountyhunter

[bountyhunter]

It depends on where you work and how bad you need that particular job, how hard you can push back.

The line I usually drew was as follows:

I make sure my boss understands exactly why what he is planning to do is wrong, what problems it will cause, and what the consequences are. If he still says we have to do it: I nod my head and say:

"You're the boss."

I only drew a hard line when I was being asked to lie or fake something that would hurt my reputation or good name.

In one case at national Semi, they had a part with a catastrophic defect and high failure rate. But it made money, so they kept selling it. My boss told me there was a new part "in the pipe" to replace it so I should shut up and be patient. The new part had worse problems and got dropped. When I found out the original "exploding wonder" was not being phased out, I told him I would not handle the part anymore and the returns would have to go to somebody else. That got me in hot water, but they did comply.

[whitedog]

I gave up a long time ago. I work for the government. Enough said.

[Youngeyes]

"I gave up a long time ago. I work for the government."

A government of the people, by the people, for the people....

How sad.

[Shadowrider]

Working for an aerospace manufacturer in California a few years ago. When the GM wanted to hold the books open for an extra day to get one shipment that comprised some serious money on said books for that month's revenue. The new accountant informed him that if it wasn't on the truck by midnight it wasn't getting counted. The look was priceless! The GM I don't think honestly knew what surprised him more, the fact that he was being defied or that someone had the nuts and would actually do it. Accountant said he didn't get paid enough to go to prison. He and I got along real well.

As for real quality issues or specification compliance, I would never even consider covering anything up and most everyone else wouldn't either. I did know a QA manager whose father had been a QA manager also. The father did time in club Fed for this kind of nonsense.

[CHA-LEE]

I run into this type of situation more than I would like where I work. I identify an issue, notify management, then it gets brushed off and leads to a complete disaster later on down the road. When I first started this kind of situation would irritate the crap out of me. But I have since learned that managers and directors need to learn lessons the hard way some times just like the rest of the worker bees. Today, I will voice my honest opinion on a situation I know will result in a less than favorable outcome. Then simply let the upper management team make the decision and roll with whatever they decide.

If you basically give the management team enough rope to hang themselves and get burned by poor decisions, this will usually make them more receptive to your suggestions or warnings in the future. I have worked at this place long enough that when a manager starts to push back on something all I have to do is remind them of a prior bad decision and disaster associated with the same kind of issue to drive my point home. Interestingly enough, every year during my performance review I ALWAYS have a "negative" report against me for not being a team player or not playing nice with my coworkers. But on the other side of the coin I ALWAYS get a huge "positive" report for voicing my honest opinion on critical issues and helping drive them to resolution. So basically the management team hates that I call them out on making poor decisions, but also likes that I do it because it saves their butt in the long run.

To make a long story short, all you can really do is voice your honest opinion then roll with whatever the management team decides. Then use the management teams track record of bad decisions as leverage to motivate them to make the correct decision next time. This stance obviously applies if you are not the one ending up being liable for an illegal action mandated by the management team. If you are being forced into a situation were the management team wants you to intentionally perform an illegal action, I would stand my ground and tell them to pound sand.

[whitedog]

Young eyes. Yes, it is sad. I do my job the best I can. Ignoring all the crap around me.

At the end of the day..what I did is correct.

[RammerJammer]

"I gave up a long time ago. I work for the government."

A government of the people, by the people, for the people....

How sad.

All I can say is you have no idea. I'm sure at some point it was for the people but not in recent memory. I could go in tomorrow and tell my boss that I won't be doing anything this week to not even ask. Then leave at noon every day and there would be no repercussions.

[Youngeyes]

You're right. I have no idea. Are the cards really that stacked against us? Have we really hit the point where people with strong convictions, and were raised with integrity and values, can't slowly make a difference. I am not saying that any here are without these values. I only say that maybe small changes may lead to larger changes. Or am I hopelessly naïve? I admit to stupid. I'd really like to continue believing in us. I agree with Grumpy. It just rubs me the wrong way.

[whitedog]

The cards are really stacked against you. And it sucks.

If you care, you do yer job best you can. All you can do.

An example. I happen to be very good at rebuilding the steering columns on our vehicles. I trained a few new hires. Good, right? Nope.

I have rebuilt every column in the part of fleet I work on. Why? Screw up enough and they don't give it to you no more. No training, just give it to Dave. He'll do it. So I do it.

How's that for a work atmosphere? You suck, it's ok do this instead......and the employes stay sucky.

[bountyhunter]

You're right. I have no idea. Are the cards really that stacked against us? Have we really hit the point where people with strong convictions, and were raised with integrity and values, can't slowly make a difference.

yes, the government is long past the point where it could be saved.

It is a self sustaining feedback loop that is locked in a fail mode. You can't get elected without selling out for big money, and big money won't back you unless you are "on board" with their values.

Edited December 18, 2013 by bountyhunter

[whitedog]

A failure loop. Could not have said it better.

[GrumpyOne]

The cards are really stacked against you. And it sucks.

If you care, you do yer job best you can. All you can do.

An example. I happen to be very good at rebuilding the steering columns on our vehicles. I trained a few new hires. Good, right? Nope.

I have rebuilt every column in the part of fleet I work on. Why? Screw up enough and they don't give it to you no more. No training, just give it to Dave. He'll do it. So I do it.

How's that for a work atmosphere? You suck, it's ok do this instead......and the employes stay sucky.

Dude, that's me...Give it to Andy, he can do it...

[JimmyZip]

That is why I have had issues with working for large companies where I have limited power., I just get too tripped out when the bureaucracy is so large that it gains a life of its' own. If I cannot name at least 75% of my coworkers by name after the first day, I've got a problem. Too easy for lazy and inept people to just skate. Then others who are alert, sharp, and focused on quality get the lions share of the work? Yeah, can't do it. I'd just piss a bunch of people off.

Heck, I can't even stand watching someone else coach my kids soccer team. I coached five seasons before I could sit on the side lines. When do you give up?

Never, get another job. Start looking now.

JZ

[thermobollocks]

I wish the lazy and inept people would just skate here. Then, they'd be out of my way.

[Glocktogo]

When I get put in a position where I know I can't change the inevitable bad outcome, I explain to my boss how I will not quietly be the fall guy when the excrement impacts the oscillating fecal flinger. It's always a good idea to amass some dirt on people who have a lower moral threshold AND occupy a position the affords them the opportunity to screw you. My "leadership" as they like to call themselves, know where the line is. They want to cross it all the time, I just give them reason enough to think twice.

[GrumpyOne]

I wish the lazy and inept people would just skate here. Then, they'd be out of my way.

Problem is, the lazy and inept end up causing more work and headache for me, cause they are lazy, inept, and know someone else will pick up their slack...I can deal with that though...what I have a problem with is the lack of, I guess you could call it pride, in the work that they perform (if and when they actually perform any work). They've been skating so long and getting away with it, that nothing you say or do is gonna change how they react at work...If there are no consequences for bad performance (and very little accolades for good performance) what reason do they have for changing they way they are? I'm tired of the "Oh well, not my problem" attitude. ..