Double Alpha pouches illegal for IDPA

[NinerRider]

Shot my first IDPA match after shooting USPSA for years. Had fun but all the nonsensical rules and equipment had me shaking my head. I used my DA race holster and everyone was cool with it but for the life of me I don't get why it is okay to shoot my Eagle but not my bull barreled Edge. In reality they shoot the same. Pulling the trigger is fun no matter what organization but lighten up on the rules a little!

[BillinTR]

It seems as if the core issue which sems to divide many of the opinions expressed in this thread is found in the poll at top of the forum. Why do you shoot IDPA? If you are in it primarily for the competition and bragging rights then you are probably going to be unhappy with a lot of the equipment rules. If you are in it for the practice and training for the defensive use of your carry pistol then you probably are using equipment that you carry on a daily basis. For the majority of us that probably means we are using equipment that fits into the IDPA rules somewhere.

I personally don't much care how I did relative to other shooters. I am trying to improve my own performance with my equipment. I have 3 different guns I rotate through my daily carry a SIg P226, P220 and P6. They all have disadvantages from a competitive stand point. The rest of my equipment is chosen to be able to carry those guns as comfortably and discreetly as possible. The result is that I have no worries about fitting into the IDPA equipment rules.

When I choose to enter a competitive sport I look at the rules and determine what I need to participate. In the case of IDPA the nature of the matches and the rules of participation allow me to use what I have and not be concerned about laying out big bucks to be "competitive". If I don't like the rules or the nature of the competition then I do something else. That is why I avoid USPSA. I am an old guy with my share of aches, pains and limitations. I just don't feel I would be able to get through many of the stages I see when watching some of the competitions on TV.

Every competition has rules. If you don't like the rules play a different game. The one objective of IDPA which I find most gratifying is the desire to avoid an expensive equipment race. Shooting is getting expensive enough without making things worse just to be able to participate.

Sorry about the rant but sometimes all the whining over why the rules won't allow someones favorite piece of equipment just seems silly.

[98sr20ve]

without a doubt, a full-sized 1911 is a common carry gun. Not the MOST common by any means, but not at all unusual.

Lay a G34 and a 1911 on top of each other. Other then grip angle. Very similar in size.

[tbarker13]

Sorry about the rant but sometimes all the whining over why the rules won't allow someones favorite piece of equipment just seems silly.

Just to be clear. I wasn't whining because a favorite piece of equipment is against the rules. I'm annoyed because I went out and bought equipment specifically because it was legal. And then two months later, they changed the rules and made my IDPA purchase illegal. Nobody likes to waste money.

And frankly, I believe any existing member of an organization has the absolute right to comment on the rules of that organization - particularly when they change those rules midstream.

I get that IDPA will do what it wants. And the more comments I read from IDPA's leadership, I see they are determined to travel this current path. And I wish them all the best.

But as long as I'm paying dues, designing stages, working as an SO, running classifers and helping to run matches (both club and sanctioned), I'm going to feel quite comfortable commenting on the rules of the game.

Of course, no one has to listen.

[BillinTR]

Apologies but I wasn't trying to single anyone out and I can sympathize with spending money on something and then finding the rules change to make your purchase a waste of money.

There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism that contributes to the betterment of the organization. But after reading many of the threads on IDPA rules and participation it seems that there are a lot of people who are doing just what I suggested--whining. Like any competitive sport rules are necessary. Anyone can find rules they don't like or don't make sense to them. But some of the complaints I read about stuff is about trivial nonsense that is not that difficult to deal with. Rules are about drawing lines to keep everyone on equal footing competitively. Every time they extend the line a little further to accommodate a particular complaint it just makes it that much more difficult to stop doing it. A line has to be drawn somewhere and every once in a while someone will find themselves on the wrong side of the line.

I, for one, hope that IDPA sticks to at least one guiding principle in its rules and that is keeping it from becoming an equipment race so that Joe Average can participate without feeling the need to spend thousands of dollars on equipment.

[tbarker13]

Apologies but I wasn't trying to single anyone out and I can sympathize with spending money on something and then finding the rules change to make your purchase a waste of money.

There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism that contributes to the betterment of the organization. But after reading many of the threads on IDPA rules and participation it seems that there are a lot of people who are doing just what I suggested--whining. Like any competitive sport rules are necessary. Anyone can find rules they don't like or don't make sense to them. But some of the complaints I read about stuff is about trivial nonsense that is not that difficult to deal with. Rules are about drawing lines to keep everyone on equal footing competitively. Every time they extend the line a little further to accommodate a particular complaint it just makes it that much more difficult to stop doing it. A line has to be drawn somewhere and every once in a while someone will find themselves on the wrong side of the line.

I, for one, hope that IDPA sticks to at least one guiding principle in its rules and that is keeping it from becoming an equipment race so that Joe Average can participate without feeling the need to spend thousands of dollars on equipment.

I don't disagree.

But I do think we are seeing a large amount of complaining right now because of the recent rule changes. It's just natural. We paid for one thing, but now are getting something a little different. I'm sure it will fade back to lower level of complaining once everyone adapts or leaves the game.

I do have to challenge you a little bit, however, on this argument about not turning IDPA into an equipment race. If you leave out the OPEN division of USPSA, the price to compete in these two games is pretty much the same. Sure, you have to buy a few more mags and mag pouches for USPSA - but that's partially offset by the need to buy a cover garment for IDPA. This is particularly true for CDP/Single Stack, SSP/Production and the revolver divisions. With a few exceptions, the gear is interchangeable.

It does get a little more expensive to shoot in Limited (compared with ESP). But it doesn't cost a lot more to buy an STI Edge than it does to buy an STI Eagle.

I've been shooting in both games for a couple years. And until this year, when I bought a dedicated Limited gun (made IDPA illegal by its bull barrel), I've always used the same gun in both games.

[BillinTR]

My response about the equipment race is simple. Although I never have shot USPSA my understanding is that the production class and other more restrictive classes were introduced to USPSA for the very same reason. People were complaining that they couldn't afford to compete with the race guns in the more open classes.

As far a those Double A pouches I have a theory which may or may not be accurate about the adjustment knobs. In IDPA the pouches are required to have enogh retention to retain the loaded magazines. Now if you go through an equipment check and they are satisfied with the tension but then you decide to loosen them up (for speed?) when you go to shoot the stages I imagine they don't want you to be able to do that. Making them only be adjustable by using a tool makes it a bit more difficult. Just a thought. I could be and probably am wrong.

[tbarker13]

My response about the equipment race is simple. Although I never have shot USPSA my understanding is that the production class and other more restrictive classes were introduced to USPSA for the very same reason. People were complaining that they couldn't afford to compete with the race guns in the more open classes.

As far a those Double A pouches I have a theory which may or may not be accurate about the adjustment knobs. In IDPA the pouches are required to have enogh retention to retain the loaded magazines. Now if you go through an equipment check and they are satisfied with the tension but then you decide to loosen them up (for speed?) when you go to shoot the stages I imagine they don't want you to be able to do that. Making them only be adjustable by using a tool makes it a bit more difficult. Just a thought. I could be and probably am wrong.

I think you may be correct on USPSA's production class. But I think Single Stack and Revolver have always been this way.

I don't mean to pick on you, but I just see this comment about equipment races repeated a lot - to the point where I don't know if people are really thinking about it.

I've seen so many competitive ESP shooters with guns that might as well be USPSA limited guns in terms of expense. They are configured a little differently, but not enough that it's a real cost savings. Someone who spends $2,000 on an ESP gun isn't going to have a problem spending $2,200 on a Limited gun.

Both games offer a lower-priced way to compete, whether it's IDPA's SSP or USPSA's production division. But you can spend a hell of a lot of money in IDPA's ESP division (or CDP, for that matter) - and they've done nothing to change that.

As for your theory on the adjustable mag pouches - that makes as much sense as anything I can come up with.

.

[waktasz]

I think even with out that rule they were probably illegal. I think they are two far from you body. I could be wrong, I shoot revolvers. So I'm not up on all the bottom feeder equipment rules.

They are, unless you change out the belt attachment. I mounted a pair on tek loks. Just as close to my body as safarilands.

Sounds like about the most possible expensive way to make an IDPA mag pouch. With the adjustment wheel though I can't see them as legal.

[BillinTR]

Don't worry. I don't feel picked on. I know my opinion may not be popular.

I am not terribly familiar with the USPSA equipment rules at all. But I know you can't do anything really radical in IDPA like porting and slide lightening even in ESP. So I feel that if I wanted to I could shoot in ESP with a reasonably well tuned gun without spending thousands. A decent trigger job on an S&W M&P or a Glock isn't that expensive. A lot of what I see guys doing to their guns locally isn't really helping them that much. I sometimes wonder if it isn't more for cool factor. If they spend the money on ammo and practice time they would do themselves more good. Perhaps the same argumets apply to production class in USPSA.

[tbarker13]

I think even with out that rule they were probably illegal. I think they are two far from you body. I could be wrong, I shoot revolvers. So I'm not up on all the bottom feeder equipment rules.

They are, unless you change out the belt attachment. I mounted a pair on tek loks. Just as close to my body as safarilands.

Sounds like about the most possible expensive way to make an IDPA mag pouch. With the adjustment wheel though I can't see them as legal.

Not when you have a bunch of spare tek loks. And again, just to be clear, these were earlier ruled legal by IDPA.

So, really, from my perspective, the most expensive way to make an iDPA mag pouch is to buy one that's legal, have it outlawed, and then buy another one that's legal.

[tbarker13]

Don't worry. I don't feel picked on. I know my opinion may not be popular.

I am not terribly familiar with the USPSA equipment rules at all. But I know you can't do anything really radical in IDPA like porting and slide lightening even in ESP. So I feel that if I wanted to I could shoot in ESP with a reasonably well tuned gun without spending thousands. A decent trigger job on an S&W M&P or a Glock isn't that expensive. A lot of what I see guys doing to their guns locally isn't really helping them that much. I sometimes wonder if it isn't more for cool factor. If they spend the money on ammo and practice time they would do themselves more good. Perhaps the same argumets apply to production class in USPSA.

USPSA is no different. You could shoot Limited with whatever reasonably well tuned gun you chose for IDPA and you'd be fine. It's why I don't get that equipment race argument. I just don't see it in USPSA. Certainly you can spend money on gear in some divisions. But as you point out, anyone who spends their time and money on ammo and practice will do themselves more good.

It's not the gun that makes the shooter.

USPSA masters and grand masters don't get there because they spent thousands of dollars tricking out their guns. They get there because they work their asses off.

[waktasz]

I think even with out that rule they were probably illegal. I think they are two far from you body. I could be wrong, I shoot revolvers. So I'm not up on all the bottom feeder equipment rules.

They are, unless you change out the belt attachment. I mounted a pair on tek loks. Just as close to my body as safarilands.

Sounds like about the most possible expensive way to make an IDPA mag pouch. With the adjustment wheel though I can't see them as legal.

Not when you have a bunch of spare tek loks. And again, just to be clear, these were earlier ruled legal by IDPA.

So, really, from my perspective, the most expensive way to make an iDPA mag pouch is to buy one that's legal, have it outlawed, and then buy another one that's legal.

Can you point me to where these were ruled legal?

Edited December 20, 2013 by waktasz

[tbarker13]

I think even with out that rule they were probably illegal. I think they are two far from you body. I could be wrong, I shoot revolvers. So I'm not up on all the bottom feeder equipment rules.

They are, unless you change out the belt attachment. I mounted a pair on tek loks. Just as close to my body as safarilands.

Sounds like about the most possible expensive way to make an IDPA mag pouch. With the adjustment wheel though I can't see them as legal.

Not when you have a bunch of spare tek loks. And again, just to be clear, these were earlier ruled legal by IDPA.

So, really, from my perspective, the most expensive way to make an iDPA mag pouch is to buy one that's legal, have it outlawed, and then buy another one that's legal.

Can you point me to where these were ruled legal?

I know that one of our shooters specifically asked Robert Ray about them at nationals and was told they were fine.

But I guess I'd also ask you to show me where they were illegal - before the recent ruling. The only thing that makes them illegal is the new rule that forbids mag pouches that can be adjusted without a tool. That was not in the old rule book. Or even in the new rule book for that matter. It came out of the recent update.

[waktasz]

I can't seem to find my copy of the old rulebook but I thought there was something in there about not being able to adjust the holster without using tools. Maybe that was just holster angles.

[tbarker13]

I can't seem to find my copy of the old rulebook but I thought there was something in there about not being able to adjust the holster without using tools. Maybe that was just holster angles.

This is all I can find. Nothing in here seems to forbid it. It could be debated about whether it is designed for conceal carry. But as people have pointed out (regarding various guns), who can really say what is and isn't designed for conceal carry?

Magazine Carrier must:

A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day continuous wear.

B. Be worn on a standard belt of no more than 1 ¾”width that must pass through the belt loops on the shooter’s pants.

C. Hold the magazine with enough tension to allow it to be turned upside down and retain a fully loaded magazine.

D. Cover 2” of the magazine as measured from the top of the cartridge rim down the back flat of the magazine tube.

E. Cover the entire front face of the portion of the magazine inside the carrier. The front face is defined as the side of the

tube away from the shooter’s body.

F. Hold the magazine within 10 degrees of vertical (80-100° to the ground) position on the belt, no substantial forward or rear

cant.

G. Be worn in a belt location that will position the front edge of the carrier behind the centerline of the body.

[waktasz]

Just paint it flat black or OD green. That's what I did with my CR pouches

[Jammer1911]

I have no interest at all in IDPA. BUT, isn't it geared more towards real world carry equipment? Who would carry Race Master pouches on a daily basis?

It's funny you would say that.

Maybe the same people who would carry Glock 34s, STI Eagles and full-size 1911s.

It's rare that you see people shooting true carry guns in IDPA. Certainly not the serious competitors.

In fact, it's so rare that IDPA actually has a sub-category of BUG guns (and occasional matches for them) just to get people to use real carry stuff.

Nah. The idea of IDPA using real world carry equipment is just that. An idea. But it's not reality.

Whats wrong with carrying a full size 1911. I do nearly everyday.

[tbarker13]

I have no interest at all in IDPA. BUT, isn't it geared more towards real world carry equipment? Who would carry Race Master pouches on a daily basis?

It's funny you would say that.

Maybe the same people who would carry Glock 34s, STI Eagles and full-size 1911s.

It's rare that you see people shooting true carry guns in IDPA. Certainly not the serious competitors.

In fact, it's so rare that IDPA actually has a sub-category of BUG guns (and occasional matches for them) just to get people to use real carry stuff.

Nah. The idea of IDPA using real world carry equipment is just that. An idea. But it's not reality.

Whats wrong with carrying a full size 1911. I do nearly everyday.

Did someone say there is anything wrong with carrying a full-size 1911? I certainly didn't.

That entire line of discussion came about when someone questioned whether the double alpha mag pouches are appropriate for CCW. Obviously, no one can really say what is and isn't right for everyday carry - whether we are talking about guns or mag pouches.

But we do have to have rules, regardless of whether they make sense from a real-life CCW standpoint.

[motosapiens]

A lot of what I see guys doing to their guns locally isn't really helping them that much. I sometimes wonder if it isn't more for cool factor. If they spend the money on ammo and practice time they would do themselves more good. Perhaps the same argumets apply to production class in USPSA.

not just production class. those arguments also apply to limited class imho. Sure, there is lots you *can* do to a limited gun, but there doesn't seem to be any indication that any of that stuff makes you win. The only place I think uspsa really runs into a required equipment race is in magazine capacity (depending on the stage layout).

But whatever. I shoot the same gun in SSP and in production, and a different same gun in cdp and singlestack or L10. I just use el cheapo double mag pouches for IDPA and fancy ones with just the right angle and spacing for USPSA. I don't feel my el cheapo mag pouches are any disadvantage in IDPA.

I think if the DAA racer pouches *were* legal, but now aren't, that is indeed lame. fortunately, it looks like it can be remedied by just modifying the pouches so they require a tool to adjust. I leave mine all the way loose anyway, so I would never miss the knob.

[BillinTR]

If you leave your mag pouches all the way loose how do you satisfy the retention requirement? With a loose mag pouch I would think your magazines would fall out if checked.

[Laughingdog]

I have no interest at all in IDPA. BUT, isn't it geared more towards real world carry equipment? Who would carry Race Master pouches on a daily basis?

It's funny you would say that.

Maybe the same people who would carry Glock 34s, STI Eagles and full-size 1911s.

It's rare that you see people shooting true carry guns in IDPA. Certainly not the serious competitors.

In fact, it's so rare that IDPA actually has a sub-category of BUG guns (and occasional matches for them) just to get people to use real carry stuff.

Nah. The idea of IDPA using real world carry equipment is just that. An idea. But it's not reality.

I carried a full-size 1911 daily for a couple of years before switching to a P30L. I actually find those to be far more comfortable to carry than a G26 or an LCR.

But I can't imagine using any Double Alpha gear for daily carry. At a USPSA match, sure. But not daily carry.

[motosapiens]

If you leave your mag pouches all the way loose how do you satisfy the retention requirement? With a loose mag pouch I would think your magazines would fall out if checked.

all the way loose still has plenty of tension.

[waktasz]

I don't believe that the "must hold a mag while upside down" rule exists in the rulebook anymore

[Steve Koski]

Correct. The tension description/requirement is gone. You just get a PE if you dislodge one from the carrier now.