Saiga 12/Vepr 12 in Tac Ops class?

[silverphoenix]

Just curious what everyone thought about allowing a factory configuration saiga 12, MK1919 or vepr 12 in tac ops class?

Since these shotguns cost around $600-$1000 respectively now, in situations outside of 3-gun competition, it would make sense to go with more modern technology that costs a little more if not the same as tube fed semi-autos.

My question is: What does everyone think about allowing these into tac ops? The whole premise of "Open Class", to my understanding, is to separate those who have utilitarian firearms and limited resources from those who have tricked out race guns and who have deep pockets in order to make the playing field fair. Are people worried that if box fed shotguns are allowed in tac ops that tube fed shotguns will go the way of the bolt action and quickly take over competitions?

How about if magazines were limited to perhaps 5 rounds to make the playing field more "fair"?

I hate to see so many people driven away from box fed shotguns because they don't have the money to buy a second optic for their rifle, one for their pistol, and all the other jazz that open class requires. If people can buy better tech for the same price, I'd like to see them allowed to run with it without penalty. Just my humble opinion. Let me know what your thoughts are!

Edited November 19, 2013 by silverphoenix

[outerlimits]

heck, why not? little difference between tac ops and open in rifle anyway...might was well make shotgun the same.

[gose]

Introducing something like that into a restricted division will go one of two ways since you'll never be able to perfectly level the playing field between them:

1) Mag fed shotguns will be better than tube fed ones, obsoleting the tubefeeders

2) Mag fed shotguns will not be as good as tube fed ones, meaning people shooting them wont really be better any off in TO than they would have been in Open from the start.

So either its not worth it, or you'll make a majority of 3-gunners' shotguns obsolete...

The differences between a TO and Open rifle are small, so there shouldnt be anything really need to do on the rifle, except maybe get a bipod.

And since you dont need to shoot major, get a dot milled into the slide of a regular 9mm and shoot some soft 9mm minor loads and you wont be too far behind in pistol either.

If thats still too big of a hurdle to overcome economically, youre probably mostly just shooting for fun anyway, so why would it be less fun to shoot in Open?

Edited November 19, 2013 by gose

[mpeltier]

I'd be all for it. I feel restricting box fed mag shotguns to open is rediculous. It's the only restriction that limits a whole class of firearms to only one division in the realm of multi/3gun. I think they should be allowed with a similar set of restrictions as already exists between open and tac-ops rifles and/or shotguns. Mostly sights and compensators/muzzle breaks. You want to "level the playing field" (I hate that term) do it with stage design.

[silverphoenix]

Maybe I just have a different perspective on things, but I see a Huge difference between TC and O. In open, you Have to sink in a ton more money to be competitive. For far as optics, you can get a higher magnification scope and then put a red dot on the side. You can also use a bipod, which helps significantly. For pistol, you can mount a red dot and have all sorts of custom work done such as porting your barrel, compensators, higher capacity mags, etc. On shotgun, capacity is unlimited and you can have a red dot.

Between the three extra optics, all the mag extensions, custom work, and extra parts, you're talking about a huge gap in expenditure between tac ops and open.

Also , while I run open and intend to stay in it, I lead a group of students who cannot afford to run open and be competitive with the equipment they can afford.

I feel wrong telling them that they cannot get a saiga 12/mk1919/ vepr 12 unless they want to spend thousands more to run open competitively. They should be able to buy better technology for the same price.

Anyways, to me it's as if the shoe was on the other foot with rifle vs shotgun. If we started with tube fed rifles and then the mag fed rifle came along. Would it be fair to restrict ar15's to open class by nature just so lever actions/ bolt actions would not become obsolete?

Technology evolves and as it does, maybe we should embrace it more.

[Blaise1]

No more than 8rds max for box fed shotguns at any time would seem pretty fair at local level matches. The typical guy starting out in 3 Gun that has a box fed usually isn't going to be shooting an R&R or Firebird and probably isn't going to be able to reload much faster than guys with tube guns with experience. At OKC Gun Club boxfeds are allowed with restrictions in TO and none of the top finishers seem the least bit threatened, or inclined to sell their Benelli's.

[Sterling White]

I like stages that require all rounds to start in a shotgun box(s) on the table. It's entertaining to watch the box feeder loading take place.

No dots and no comps on the guns would work for me. What would need to be decided would be the mag capacity after the start.

[silverphoenix]

We've been talking about limiting box fed shotguns to just 5 rounds per mag, as per standard factory mags. Plus the usual tac ops class restrictions. Would this be satisfactory in leveling the field?

[rep70]

I would think to get a box fed to run reliably in any class, you are looking at sinking well over a grand. That defeats your cheap cost of entry argument.

Stock box fed with stock 5 round mags, I will stick with my old technology tube fed, until someone makes a more reliable alternative.

[mpeltier]

I would think to get a box fed to run reliably in any class, you are looking at sinking well over a grand. That defeats your cheap cost of entry argument.

Stock box fed with stock 5 round mags, I will stick with my old technology tube fed, until someone makes a more reliable alternative.

If more matches embraced a logical advancement in shotgun hardware we would see more advancements in reliability as well as a reduction in cost. Sometimes the unneccesary limitations put on things like this actually hinder progress in our sport. Until more folks open their minds and eyes well be stuck with using bird hunting equipment in a tactical rooted game.

[rep70]

I would think if that many people wanted to use box fed shotguns, open would be more popular. I don't see a huge difference between TO and Open in cost. The rifle cost difference would be minimum if any at all. The pistol cost is more, but comparing apples to apples most of the cost is in the red dot. I see most of the additional cost in trying to run a box fed SG, the cost to get one to run reliably is much more than a tube fed.

I honestly don't have a problem with them in TO, the OP mention cost being a concern. I am not sure a box fed helps in reducing the cost of entry, is my only point. Also, I don't own a box fed, the ones I have been around seem to be pretty unreliable without a ton of work and money sunk into them, even then seem to act up more then I would want to deal with.

Someone comes out with one that I can see giving me a competitive advantage and allow it in TO, I would be all over it I love technology.

[philg80]

I know that at my local club we do a "fun" 3 gun match a couple of times per year for practice more than anything. We use it as a time to just check things out and also to get new shooters involved. If someone comes up to shoot and all of their gear is Tac Iron or Tac Optic, but they have brought out a pretty stock Saiga/Vepr/Akdal then I usually run them in the standard divisions. Now if their guns are all standard and they have a high end tuned box fed shotgun you can best bet they go in Open. In big matches obviously we have our divisions and rules set. If it was worded very carefully so that there was no misinterpretation then I would have no problems running my stock tube gun against a STOCK mag fed gun. What you will gain is new shooters that will show up to a match that were intimidated before because they could not load a tube shotgun in a reliable way. Just be careful that someone doesn't slip through features on their box fed gun that were not of a factory configuration.

[silverphoenix]

I have two saiga 12's and both of them ran reliably out of the box.

Both of mine feed federal bulk birdshot, buckshot, and slugs very reliably. One has a magwell that I installed, polished bolt, autoplug, choke, etc and that one cost me around $1500 considering I've done most all of the work myself and including optics--that's my open gun. The other is stock with an autoplug.

The problem is that people do not know how to properly tune them or try to run cheap winchester crap through them, then get mad that it's not functioning right (without realizing why) and pass on the bad rep, which is repeated by others. Or someone tries to add mid-barrel ports/brakes or to open the gas system up, messes up the reliability, and has to send it to someone to fix their mistakes (or the mistakes of another gunsmith).

The trick is to keep it simple, get an autoplug so you can run both light and heavy loads, tune it properly, and not to run winchester.

Besides the saiga 12, the VEPR 12 is $1k and already has an auto-regulating gas system--the ones I have seen run stock are very reliable. I have not seen any unmodified mk1919's in action.

[Topmaul]

This Idea has my vote for what it's worth the only change I'd make is 8 rounds max instead of 5.

[Alaskapopo]

I love my R&R Saigas but I think tac optics should be left alone. No reason to obsolete everyone's shotgun overnight. Want to run a mag fed shotgun and its fun that is what open is for.

Pat

[ARK]

In TG competition, other then open division, shotgun stages frequently test you shell-stuffing not shooting skills. This is why I shoot open - for the fun of shooting. I do believe box fed shotguns should be allowed in other divisions and could be regulated with stage design and round limits not to give unfair advantage, ( eg. no optics, no compensators, 5 rounds factory magazine). I do not want to abandon my AR and go back to bolt operated rifle just to be politically correct.

[Ranger6]

What! They now have shotguns with "box magazines"? The next thing you know, they'll have magazines for the pistols and rifles too!

Can not believe that things are getting so far out of hand.

Ranger6

_{"If it's on the internet, it's got to be true. They can't put anything on the internet if it isn't true." A. Lincoln}

[mpeltier]

I love my R&R Saigas but I think tac optics should be left alone. No reason to obsolete everyone's shotgun overnight. Want to run a mag fed shotgun and its fun that is what open is for.

Pat

The shotguns used in TO are already obsolete by a tactical weapons standpoint. The archaic rules we continue to go by force us to keep using them in TO. I would gladly buy a new shotgun and put my Benelli back to service as a bird hunting gun if the rules would allow it. Many other sports out there have constant revisions to rules based on improving technology, why such an aversion to such in 3-gun? I have no desire to convert to open.

[Alaskapopo]

I love my R&R Saigas but I think tac optics should be left alone. No reason to obsolete everyone's shotgun overnight. Want to run a mag fed shotgun and its fun that is what open is for.

Pat

The shotguns used in TO are already obsolete by a tactical weapons standpoint. The archaic rules we continue to go by force us to keep using them in TO. I would gladly buy a new shotgun and put my Benelli back to service as a bird hunting gun if the rules would allow it. Many other sports out there have constant revisions to rules based on improving technology, why such an aversion to such in 3-gun? I have no desire to convert to open.

Frankly tactical optics is just a class name. The division has little to do with actual tactical guns and thats ok. Frankly if it were true to the way most shotguns are used in the tactical world they would all be 12 inch breacher pumps as most people use carbines now a days for fighting and not shotguns.

Tac optics is simply a class that limits the spending somewhat but not as much as limited. Open is for the innovative and for those who want to spend money on the latest and greatest constantly.

Just my opinion take it for what its worth. In my opinion both Open and tac optics are good divisons and there is not reason to try and fix them they are not broken.

pat

[bmiller]

I agree Pat, I like the divisions just the way they are.

[Dannybot]

I also agree, leave things alone.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Dannybot

[Dannybot]

The Tac Optics is already a compromise, letting us run us run a scope in an irons division, that allows red dots in irons. If boxes were allowed, then why not speed loaders?

[gose]

I love my R&R Saigas but I think tac optics should be left alone. No reason to obsolete everyone's shotgun overnight. Want to run a mag fed shotgun and its fun that is what open is for.

Pat

The shotguns used in TO are already obsolete by a tactical weapons standpoint. The archaic rules we continue to go by force us to keep using them in TO. I would gladly buy a new shotgun and put my Benelli back to service as a bird hunting gun if the rules would allow it. Many other sports out there have constant revisions to rules based on improving technology, why such an aversion to such in 3-gun? I have no desire to convert to open.

With that reasoning one could also argue that lasers and optics have obsoleted iron sights, so why not allow lasers and red dots on pistols and shotguns in TO?

[mpeltier]

I love my R&R Saigas but I think tac optics should be left alone. No reason to obsolete everyone's shotgun overnight. Want to run a mag fed shotgun and its fun that is what open is for.

Pat

The shotguns used in TO are already obsolete by a tactical weapons standpoint. The archaic rules we continue to go by force us to keep using them in TO. I would gladly buy a new shotgun and put my Benelli back to service as a bird hunting gun if the rules would allow it. Many other sports out there have constant revisions to rules based on improving technology, why such an aversion to such in 3-gun? I have no desire to convert to open.

With that reasoning one could also argue that lasers and optics have obsoleted iron sights, so why not allow lasers and red dots on pistols and shotguns in TO?

Well that is sorta, kinda not really the same. I'm not talking about accessories. In all divisions we allow detachable box magazine fed weapons as far as the pistol and rifle are concerned. There was never such a choice with the shotgun when 3-gun was started, so we were left with the tube fed bird gun. Now that there is such a choice the powers to be decided it should be an "open" gun based only on the fact it has a detachable box magazine. It's inconsistent with the firearms in all other divisions. I would have preferred to see a cap on magazine capacity (like 10 rds) and retain all other stipulations of TO. If the MKA and Saiga were around 20 years ago we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Alaskapopo]

I love my R&R Saigas but I think tac optics should be left alone. No reason to obsolete everyone's shotgun overnight. Want to run a mag fed shotgun and its fun that is what open is for.

Pat

The shotguns used in TO are already obsolete by a tactical weapons standpoint. The archaic rules we continue to go by force us to keep using them in TO. I would gladly buy a new shotgun and put my Benelli back to service as a bird hunting gun if the rules would allow it. Many other sports out there have constant revisions to rules based on improving technology, why such an aversion to such in 3-gun? I have no desire to convert to open.

With that reasoning one could also argue that lasers and optics have obsoleted iron sights, so why not allow lasers and red dots on pistols and shotguns in TO?

Well that is sorta, kinda not really the same. I'm not talking about accessories. In all divisions we allow detachable box magazine fed weapons as far as the pistol and rifle are concerned. There was never such a choice with the shotgun when 3-gun was started, so we were left with the tube fed bird gun. Now that there is such a choice the powers to be decided it should be an "open" gun based only on the fact it has a detachable box magazine. It's inconsistent with the firearms in all other divisions. I would have preferred to see a cap on magazine capacity (like 10 rds) and retain all other stipulations of TO. If the MKA and Saiga were around 20 years ago we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

The Spas 15 a magazine fed shotgun was out over 20 years ago. I like mag fed shotguns as well but the shotgun is kind of dying as a tactical tool other than for breaching so development on it has pretty much came to a standstill so I am not so sure about your comment.