JD45 Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 I just realized that nobody has commented on Ken Hackathorn's article in the new issue of the Tac. Journal. He wrote a piece about the very same topic they we have discussed here: Is IDPA training? He came across as a practical thinking guy and made some good points about the fact that it is hard to make a competition "training". I thought it was one of his better articles. It's about time for IDPA to give us more to read after waiting three months for an issue. There are very few articles in each issue. I guess some of us members are going to have to start writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyG23 Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Hackathorn's article was one of the few that he's written that I, personally, agree with. He usually comes down on the "tactical" side of the fence but in the article finally reaches the conclusion that many of us have, that if you keep score it's a game. The equipment stats from Nationals were interesting too, Comp Tac has finally beat out Blade Tech as the #1 holster !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 I was glad to see the change in tone from Ken in his latest article. In my opinion no range owner, match director or safety officer in their right mind would advocate that IDPA is training. Not unless they have a few spare millions laying around to settle the inevitable lawsuits. geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 I just hope this finally quiets those that have for the last 2 or 3 years been spouting IDPA is training. I wouldn't even try to count the number of posting that have thrown the training comment in. The first paragraph was almost the same as comments I have been posting on here and other sites. The last sentance was great, " We all agreed that if you wish to learn how to defend yourself with a handgun, a propler shooting school or instructor should be used." Daryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 As I look at the TJ, I see about 18 pages dedicated to nationals, two pages addressing issues in our sport (Ken's Corner), and a NRA political add and the rest is advertising. For those of us who didn't make it to nationals, the coverage was decent. I think they have a picture of just about everyone who shot. The equipment info was interesting. The partI am missing is a message to the members from Bill W. Where is the part where he tells us what is gong on with the new holster rules? Where is the article that tells us the status of the new rule book? Where is anything other than an advertisement for IDPA and another money making venture for Willson? Have you seen how much of the TJ is now advertising? If that covers the cost of the printing and shipping, great. It must be going pretty good as Joyce even has an add posting a job for someone to sell advertising for the TJ. It would just be nice to get some information from HQ in there. I know I am asking a lot. It must take a tremendous amount of time to write a sentance stating the Rule book won't be out until XX/XX/XXXX. Daryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I guess some of us members are going to have to start writing. The problem with getting truly first rate articles in the Tactical Journal (he said from his experience as a full-time free-lance gunwriter) is they don't pay anything. Those of us who get paid money for our writing....well, there's a reason they do that: we're good at it. The TJ, on the other hand, relies on free submissions from their readers. Having said that, I'm actually (gasp! shock!) going to be doing an article for the Tactical Journal in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I think they have a picture of just about everyone who shot. The one guy notable by his absence - unless I'm missing something - was Dave Sevigny. And that's just darn strange. Of all those dozens of pictures, how can you not have a photo of the guy who posted the best score at the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I guess some of us members are going to have to start writing. The problem with getting truly first rate articles in the Tactical Journal (he said from his experience as a full-time free-lance gunwriter) is they don't pay anything. Those of us who get paid money for our writing....well, there's a reason they do that: we're good at it. The TJ, on the other hand, relies on free submissions from their readers. Having said that, I'm actually (gasp! shock!) going to be doing an article for the Tactical Journal in the near future. Wow, gunwriters are doing pro bono? Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyG23 Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 The one guy notable by his absence - unless I'm missing something - was Dave Sevigny. And that's just darn strange. Of all those dozens of pictures, how can you not have a photo of the guy who posted the best score at the match? Take a look at page 23, looks like Sevigny and Julie Goloski. I must have way too much time on my hands...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Must take a long time for the mail to migrate to the east coast. Anyone who has spent any time on the range with Ken Hackathorn knows he's about the most knowledgeable guys around in the field of firearms training. He doesn't get all wrapped around the post professing what is right and what is wrong. He doesn't reinvent the wheel. He teaches you how to fight, how to operate around others with a gun most importantly to get good hits. If you haven't trained with him, you owe it to yourself to do so. Save some money by skipping "Kool-Aide" schools and book a Hack class. It's only common sense that tells us that shooting games aren't training unless that's all you do with a gun in your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_Kerr Posted December 5, 2004 Share Posted December 5, 2004 Duane Thomas wrote: ____________________________________________________________________ The problem with getting truly first rate articles in the Tactical Journal (he said from his experience as a full-time free-lance gunwriter) is they don't pay anything. Those of us who get paid money for our writing....well, there's a reason they do that: we're good at it. The TJ, on the other hand, relies on free submissions from their readers. Having said that, I'm actually (gasp! shock!) going to be doing an article for the Tactical Journal in the near future. " ____________________________________________________________________ Well that will be good see. You know some of you writers could start a hell of a fan base by doing some "Pro Bono" writing for fledgling (Ha, Ha) organizations. Then when the big bucks start rolling in - there you are. Seriously, any professional help you can give the Tactical Journal should be appreciated. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullautodave Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 If you haven't trained with him, you owe it to yourself to do so. Yea, I liked the part where he made you a human target stand for your shooting partner. As far as the latest article in the TJ, it is definitley an improvement over the other ones. He even quoted special agent Scott Warren in this last one. Anybody at the 1998 IDPA Nationals in Jefferson City, Missouri remember what Scott's T-shirt said? Great people. DA Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Take a Hack Class.... Well, Hell, I went thru a Gunsite Class in the early 80's with him....does that make me a tactical trainer too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 wasn't there, what did it say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Let's see, should I pay my hard earned money to be trained by Ken "Run down there and hold this target" Hackathorn or go somewhere else? HMMMMM? I think I'll go to someone else, Jeff Gonzales, Louis Awerbuck, Scott Reitz, HK Training, Gunsite, Blackwater, etc. I have taken several classes from trainers just as capable as KH. There is no reason whatsoever to stand down range and let someone shoot at you for the sake of "training". Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Yea, I liked the part where he made you a human target stand for your shooting partner. If you had ever been to a Hackathorn class you would know that you aren't MADE to do anything. If you aren't comfortable with doing something in class, Ken could care less. Its your training, not his after all. But since you have never taken a class from Ken, you probably shouldn't comment on his methods. That would be like me calling you an idiot without ever meeting you first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Anthony, If I remember correctly there was quite a bit fo discussion following the downrange "training". The opinion that it was not only unnecessary but completely inappropriate for a handgun class was shared by many in the professional training community. You don't have to have credentials from FBI HRT or Delta to know that what was done wasn't necessary. The fact that participating was optional and noone was made to do it, in and of itself tells you that there was little merit in the exercise. If the exercise is so worthy it seems that a few more people would be utilizing it for its training purposes however, there isn't. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 You don't have to have credentials from FBI HRT or Delta to know that what was done wasn't necessary. Then why do the HRT and Delta both use "down range" training? More than one well respected traveling trainer, FYI, uses "down range" training. Some trainers run a 360 degree, hot range too...lots of "trainers" in the public and private sector find that emotionally offensive as well. Oh well. Big Boy rules apply. When was your last Hackathorn class? By the way, there are 3 levels of classes that Hack teaches Basic Intermediate Advanced Keep that in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 On topic reminder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Sorry for the drift Eric. Just burns my britches when people believe everything they read in a magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 You don't have to have credentials from FBI HRT or Delta to know that what was done wasn't necessary. Then why do the HRT and Delta both use "down range" training? More than one well respected traveling trainer, FYI, uses "down range" training. Some trainers run a 360 degree, hot range too...lots of "trainers" in the public and private sector find that emotionally offensive as well. Oh well. Big Boy rules apply. When was your last Hackathorn class? By the way, there are 3 levels of classes that Hack teaches Basic Intermediate Advanced Keep that in mind. But we are not trying to be HRT or DELTA operators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Sorry for the thread drift as well Eric, but I feel I need to respond to Anthony's accusation that I simply read about the incident. First, I didn't read it in a magazine. I found out about during a class while discussing it with a trainer who had occasionally taught with Ken. It was two or three months following, that the first rumblings were on the web or in a magazine. It seems then that you are not the only firsthand source as to Ken's acitivities. Secondly, Noone ever said downrange training doesn't have a place for those operators (Delta, HRT, etc) who will be shooting and moving while working in close quarters together. In that environment the level of trust and confidence developed through live fire downrange training is invaluable. However, many in the professional community do not see a benefit commensurate with the risk for those attending handgun training at many of the available schools. Not to sound accusatory but it seems that some motivation for this activity stems from the desire to give the student a peek at the elephant and make the class a little edgier than the competitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 And that's the end of the "Tactical" discussion, here. From the forum guidelines: Intent This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions applicable to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) ;-) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged. If anyone wants to talk about the Tactical Journal, feel free to PM me and I'll reopen the thread. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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