Starting with gun "on" table

[Mike Dame]

Ok the stage discription says "gun on table" so I set it down like the guns on the limcat custom homepage.

is this allowed? I've been told that its not safe and therefore not allowed. The reason givin was if I grabed it wrong it mighttip over. If I screw up my holster draw the gun might fall out of my hands, so should holsters not be allowed in the sport? I know not all guns are able to stand up like this but as long as it's stable it should be allowed right? I can set my gun up with or without a mag inserted and bang on the table with out it tipping so what's the big deal. If i do screw up and knock it over, it would be the same as if i went to pick it up while it was laying on its side and bobbled it.

Maybe there should be a rule that states when ever a stage starts with the gun out of a holster it must be laying flat on its side. Then there would be no question as to the legality of it.

What D'ya think?

[blackdragon]

If the stage discription doesn't say "Gun Flat On Table" I don't see anything wrong with it. If it's loaded the safety is on.

Ivan

[Jim Norman]

I think that one of the basic parts of USPSA style shooting is that if the rules don't forbid it or the stage description doesn't forbid it, then it is OK to do it.

If you want to place your gun that way, go ahead, if it falls over, so long as it doesn't break the 180 and you haven't "Dropped" it, as in you have not yet touched it, you are good to go, however, IF you have touched the gun and it then falls over, you have officially dropped your gun and you are now facing a Match DQ.

I was going to cite 10.5.3, BUT that applies to loading, reloading and unloadiong, not to picking up, running with or drawing. Interestingly enough it appears that ther is actually no rule to cite about dropping a loaded gun. HTere are rules governiing the "Placing of a gun", but apparently as long as my dropped gun doesn't break the 180, I am gold. So, maybe you won't get that DQ afterall.

Gonna be fierworks over this one I bet!!

Jim Norman

[Mike Dame]

If only the RO's saw it the same way, some do and some don't thats the problem. There needs to be a set rule about it.

[Vince Pinto]

Maybe there should be a rule that states when ever a stage starts with the gun out of a holster it must be laying flat on its side. Then there would be no question as to the legality of it.

What D'ya think?

I don't think we need such a rule - we just need the people who write the stage briefings to have their wits about them. This is just a trap for young players.

Interestingly enough it appears that ther is actually no rule to cite about dropping a loaded gun.

I can't believe you said that:

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided: <snip>

[Mike Dame]

What consitutes a fall? If i knock it over while grabing it, the gun would stay in contact with the table the whole time.

[blackdragon]

Vince,

I thought 10.5.3 applys to a gun dropped on the ground.?

Ivan

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, I thought 10.5.3 applys to a gun dropped on the ground.?

The rule doesn't say drops "to the ground", and the expression "causes it to fall" is also non-limiting.

Case 1: Consider a holstered start where you stand behind a bed, barrel or another flat topped prop. If the competitor draws his loaded gun and it falls on top of the prop, it's not on the ground, but I'll still send him to the showers for unsafe gun handling.

Case 2: Consider a guy who draws his gun a bit too quickly, he loses control and has a massive fumble, but he catches the gun 12" from the ground. He's caused the gun to fall, and I'd still send him to the showers. The fact that he caught it doesn't change the fact that he's guilty of unsafe gun handling.

[Flexmoney]

Mike,

I believe our Open World Champion states on his video that that is his favorite type of gun start position.

[TDean]

I always thought the rule meant the gun had to hit the ground, but the way Vince portrays it,...interesting. So if a shooter catches their gun in the air and the muzzle never broke the 180 and the gun never contacts the ground he's DQ'd?

I like it.

[mactiger]

There is no need for a rule. As Vince pointed out, the start position (for both shooter and gun) needs to be spelled out in the stage briefing. If you want "flat on the table", say that. If you just say "on the table", then you can see a variety of interesting gun positions.

Troy

[Mike Dame]

Flex, that's correct. When I took his class last year it was brought up, and we all did it at a Level 1 match held at the same club the final day of the course.

[Paul B]

I think this is a perfectly legal answer to a table start. I've used it and it is actually much safer than the fumbling around that I have seen picking guns up from a table. A GM actually showed me this start position.

If in picking up the gun it should happen to tip over, I don't believe this is in any way a gun fall. If so, then the next time I RO a competitor picking up a gun laid flat and it slips a half inch back to the table I guess it would have to be a DQ also.

In fact the gun is not out of the competitors control and is not pointing in an unsafe direction. If a competitor is shooting over a barricade and it slips off the edge of the barricade but still in the competitors hand has it fallen?

There is a big difference between the normal movement that occurs in picking up a gun and the term "fall."

I suppose someone could interpret a situation where the gun starts standing up, but I push it over with my left hand into my right as a fall, but it should not be.

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

The test question to apply is: "Is the competitor safely in control of his gun?".

In the barricade example you cited, I envisage the competitor has a firm grip on his gun, but perhaps the bottom of the dust cover has slipped. In this case, he's still in control, so no harm, no foul. Same goes for a "gun flat on table" start, where the gun might slide forward an inch or two as the competitor is scooping it up.

On the other hand, if the gun was standing erect as depicted in the image above, and the gun fell flat on the table as the competitor was attempting to grab it, this might be a case of unsafe gun handling, if he wasn't "safely in control". I'd have to see it before I could make a call, but I can tell you that I've seen some hairy activities with table starts in my time. This is why I go to great lengths to prepare the table properly with a non-slip surface and a very clear stage briefing.

Table starts are fun, but the course builder must not unnecessarily put the competitor at risk of a match DQ.

[ErikW]

Well while we're on the subject, "Flat on table" doesn't have to mean the side. The mag well is flat. Or a Limited/Standard gun upside-down on the slide/sights.

But good luck at getting the RO to start you.

P.S. Since when does "unloaded" mean slide-forward, hammer down?

[Nik Habicht]

P.S. Since when does "unloaded" mean slide-forward, hammer down?

Since I started specifying that in a stage description? Sometimes I'll require slide forward, hammer down starts --- other times, I'll write it as unloaded.....

[Jim Norman]

Vince,

I'll gladly stand corrected. I read that rule about 4x before I cited it and I swear that elves must have removed and then replaced that little two letter word---or.

Having said that, If the gun is on the table as indicated in the original post has not yet been touched and falls over, was it dropped?

I'll readily agree that a gun in the hand that is at some point found to be airborne has been A) Dropped and is certainly not in control of the shooter and C) could be said to be unsafe gunhandling.

Now here is an interesting question along these lines. The shooter trips wile running across the stage, falls, completes a full roll, never breaks the 180, regains his feet and keeps shooting. What would you do?

Jim Norman

[mactiger]

Well, sure, but that's the point, isn't it? If you say "on the table", then on the table is good. Flat or unloaded means different things to different people, so it's up to either the course designer or the RM to define exactly what's intended in the stage briefing. I think that just saying flat leaves too much to interpretation.

Troy

[bgary]

Now here is an interesting question along these lines. The shooter trips wile running across the stage, falls, completes a full roll, never breaks the 180, regains his feet and keeps shooting. What would you do?

Saw it, once.

Stage is one that requires lateral movement across a mostly-open bay. Shooter starts sprinting (sideways) to the right, feet crossing over (hard to describe - feet were moving across the stage, torso still pointed downrange).

He trips.

It gets really quiet.

He lands, rolls, keeping the gun pointed downrange the whole time, rolls back up on his feet and keeps going.

The *really* impressive part was that just before he landed, you could hear the "snick" of his safety being clicked on.

RO (me) was really impressed, not only at his agility but at his presence of mind. It never occurred to me to penalize him... *nothing* that he did approached a rule violation, and although he was momentarily airborne, I did not feel he was "out of control".

--------------

Alternative story -

At a "major" match a couple of years back, I was running a pretty "speedy" shooter. Again, a stage set up basically across the stage, requiring lateral movement. Shooter runs across the bay, slips in gravel, basically goes to all 4s (with gun still in hand) and *tries* to climb back to his feet while his momentum continues to carry him across the bay. Mostly what he accomplished was a really awkward momentum-enhanced crawl, on knees and elbows, across sharp gravel while trying furiously to regain his feet.

I stopped him.

He was pissed - he starts yelling at me that he did not sweep himself, his gun never hit the ground, and he never lost control of his gun.

And he was right - but it was several moments before he took a breath long enough for me to tell him that I *didnt* stop him to DQ him.

I stopped him because I no longer could see whether he was safe or not, and I was no longer able to "control" him. *IF* he had continued to tumble, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have swept the crowd with a loaded gun, I didn't want that to happen and there was nothing I could do to restrain him when it happened. So I stopped him before it happened.

I called it RO-interference, let him leave the bay to stop the bleeding on all the places he had left skin on the gravel, and later re-ran him.

Second-guessing it later, I grappled with the knowledge that nothing in the rules allowed me to take the action I did. In truth, as an RO I really had only two rules-supported choices: Let him continue and hope he *didn't* sweep himself or anyone else, or let him continue and DQ him *when* he swept himself or someone else. He was clearly not in control, and I did not believe it was "safe" to let him continue on that path, even though he had not yet done anything DQable.

I'm still fairly comfortable that "the third choice" - the one that the rulebook doesn't support - was the Right Thing To Do, in the "big picture", and especially in the split-second I had to make a decision. But I continue to thrash on it, as I don't enjoy it when other people "make up rules", and I am acutely aware that that is exactly what I did then.

Bruce

[Jim Norman]

Edited to include comment on Bruce's post immediatly preceeding this one.

Bruce, the first is exactly what happend several years ago at our club, very imnpressive. And I agree about the second, it is exactly the call that I would make in the same situation. Sort of goes along with the one we were all discussing in another thread, the one where the shooter lets a round off after "doing stuff", I would stop him and worry about the rules after. Much better than patching up bullet holes. Wish I'd thought of the RO interference call. Eliminates all the hoopla.

Now, back to the thread about start positons.

Start postion, Gun on table, seated in chair.

The gun does not have to be loaded, if the competitor fails to load he meets the description, the gun can be in any spot on the table he wants it to be.

Start Postion: Gun loaded, lying flat on table, no propping allowed, seated in chair.

Now the gun has to be loaded and laid on its side, no you can't put a spare mag under it, or anything else for that matter.

Start position: Gun unloaded, slide forward, hammer down, Action closed in the case of a revolver. First magazine (or all magazines) to come from the table, seated in chair.

Ok, seems pretty clear, BUT I can place a mag under my gun to prop it up because you didn't say I couldn't.

Start Position:Gun unloaded, slide forward, hammer down, Action closed in the case of a revolver. First magazine (or all magazines) to come from the table. Gun may not be proped up, seated in chair.

This one seems to cover the bases, maybe.

Also there can be specified various conditions, Slide forward, hammer down or just slide forward, (Hammer can be down), How about slide locked back or cylinder open. You don't say I cant have a mag inserted here, can I? You bet I can. The point of all this is, if it isn'r specific and you think it will help, go ahead and do it. Course designers, you want a particulare start, you better spell out every nuance.

Jim Norman

[Filthy1]

Vince,

I totally agree with you that the stage briefings are the place to decide if "gun on table" really means flat.

I was attending the same Level III match where Madness and myself argued that the the stage briefing did not say "gun flat on table".

We were not allowed to start with gun standing as the pic in the 1st post portrays.

We were told that it was not safe.

Which I thought was ludicrous since competitors hand position was also not spicified. By the way the stage briefing was written you could have started with gun standing on table and hand hovering within mm's of gun (as long as you were not touching it of course).

Vince... Question: Is the RO/CRO responsible for stage briefing interpretation and/or deciding that a competitors UNIQUE interpretation of the stage briefing should be allowed or not? If this went to arbitration how do you think the competitor would fare?

[Mike Dame]

Wrong forum Filthy, I don't go by Madness here. Thanks for mentioning the arbitration part, I forgot about that.

[Kingman]

Well the dreaded gun flat got me this weekend.

I dq'd on a stage that the gun started in a "glove box" you had to open the door and then retrieve the gun. Several problems here led to this.

1. I am not used to picking up the gun I was using off of a table. The fact that it sits differently than my old gun I should have taken better note.

2. The glove box did not have a front to stop the gun from moving forward, and there was almost no way to come from the top of the gun down on it. If you came from behind it you had to be careful not to push it out the front. If you tried to scoop it you had to be careful it did not slide back on you.

3. The surface was painted wood and it had rained earlier, as stated no front so surface was wet. They did not have an anti slip surface on it.

4. I should have slowed down to maintain safety.

But it seems some things could have been done to make this a bit safer.

[Nik Habicht]

But it seems some things could have been done to make this a bit safer.

I agree. I hate to DQ anyone --- but I really hate it when bad range design contributes to the DQ....

[mcoliver]

is this allowed?

Definitely. As long as the COF description was vague AND your gun has solid propping points.

Unfortunately, for us folks back here, RO's tend to be too detailed in the table-start position that they even draw an outline of the gun and your hand (complete with fingers) on the table.

At some point, they become too freaky explaining the starts in slow-mo hand movements about the gun conditions & hand position all the while maintaining eye contact...like, too freaky.