Production Division Gun Prices

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

This is not strictly a rules issue, but it does relate to another thread discussing predictions that "Made For Production Division" guns will sooner or later hit the US$2,000 mark.

I'd therefore like to conduct an informal (and unscientific) survey of current prices of the most prominent gun makes and models used in IPSC Production Division, as well as some of the more "exotic" models which have been announced, but feel free to quote other models too. As a "test sample" please advise prices of the following gun models, if they are available in your locality:

Beretta 92FS

CZ 75/85

CZ P01

CZ SP01 (or SP01 Tactical)

Glock 17

H&K USP

SIG P226

SIG P226 Sport (or X Five)

Tanfoglio Stock (or Stock Custom)

Please state your locality and express the retail prices (i.e. including taxes, if any) in US Dollars.

[ranger]

I just purchased a clean, used Beretta 92FS with three factory 15 round mags for $400. I purchased the pistol in Dublin, GA.

[mcoliver]

Let's see, here in the Philippines (P56.2=$1):

1. CZ & Glock - about P46K ($818)

2. Para LDA - about P64K ($1,138)

Include about P5K($88) for licensing. Additional mags would cost about P2-3K ($50 or so) for the glock and double (or close) the price for the Para LDA.

What's interesting is the Tanfoglio P9 (I think) which costs only about P22K ($391). But judging from the performance of Team Armscor in Prod who used to use these guns, I'm not sure I'm even willing to consider it.

[Dalmas]

This is the vote from the Danish jury...

Beretta 92FS - $1375

CZ 75/85 - $1085

Glock 17 - $964

H&K USP (expert) - $1242

SIG P226 Sport (or X Five) - $2052

Porsche 911 Carrera Cab 2003 used - $ 431 034

Denmark is not cheap...

[Vlad]

And why not. I qualify the following numbers by first saying that the prices I'm about to quote are from the shop a few block from my house. These are not prices I would pay because I would order my stuff cheaper and have them shipped to a different dealer, but that is not what you asked. The prices are of things he has in stock and which are suitable for USPSA production (so I can add the G34).

92fs $699

Sig226 $750

G34 (used!) $750

P99 $600

G17 $650

Sig220ST $900

USP9C $850

This are prices higher then a person who knows what they are doing would pay but they are about average for New Jersey. Excuse me if I don't want to advertise my home town on the Internet. To those numbers add a 6% sales tax, $15 in NICS (instant background check) and $2 for the permit.

However those numbers are meaningless because I can not purchase the guns I worry about. EAA (the tanfoglio importer) does not import the interesting models like the Stock Custom and the SP-01 is vapor. BTW the G34 mags are about $40 which means that a basic setup would be about $1000 and it is not all that rare or specialized of a gun when compared with the others. However as soon as they show up on the market I'll let you know what they cost.

BTW the Sig226 Sport has an MSRP of $1600 but I have never seen one in a store. The only one I see even online is on gunbroker for about $1200 but the reserve has not been met. Using Davidsons to locate one let me know that Shore Shot, an NJ shop a ways south of me, would be glad to sell me one $1780 including taxes and fees. Add mags and holdsters and you are looking at over $2000.

But it is not an equipment race.

Vlad

[Skywalker]

Here you are.

Italian retail prices listed (actual change rate: € 1 = $ 1.3), but usually you'll get a 5% discount on these prices at your local gun shop.

Beretta 98FS (Italian 9x21mm version of 92FS): € 868 = $ 1128

CZ 75: € 623 = $ 810

CZ 85: € 663 = $ 862

Glock 17: € 616 = $ 800

H&K USP: € 840 = $ 1092

SiG P226: € 1'130 = $ 1469

Tanfoglio Stock: € 1'184 = $ 1539

Tanfoglio Stock Custom: € 1'350 (approx) = $ 1755

[EricW]

WA State in the US

Beretta 92FS: $520

G17: $490

G34/35: $550

In Oregon, used G17's / G19's are $350 all day long. There are a TON of bargains in used guns in the US. The S&W -06 series in 9mm can be had for under $400 at any decent gunstore.

Vince,

There is no solution to the equipment race. The stats clearly indicate that most shooters refuse to believe that Dave Sevigny used their ass to mop the floor with a stock gun that retails for well under $600. As long as people think they've been beat with trick gun, and trick guns are available for purchase, people will buy them.

[Pierruiggi]

In Argentina, from your list:

Beretta 92FS: U$S 650 - U$S 700

Glock 17: U$S 790

H&K USP: U$S 1050 - U$S 1100

CZ-75/IMI Jericho/Tanfoglio Witness: U$S 400 - U$S 450

The other ones I don't know. But, the only ones used here on your list are the Glocks and maybe the Tanfoglios (the straight CZ 75 clone, not the fancy new production model). And due to a 4 year economic crisis, a locally manufactured gun is being very succesful in Production; the Bersa Thunder in 9mm. It's a DA/SA auto with a safety and decocker, ALA Beretta 92, only frame mounted. Capacity in 9mm 17+1 stock magazines or 19+1 with internally modified magazines (modifications to spring and follower). It costs U$S 264.

[Vince Pinto]

Thanks guys, this is great information - keep it coming.

Hopefully we'll have other prices later today from Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Canada, France and so on.

[Skywalker]

We're missing our Dutch friens (and champions) too!

[spook]

Seems like the prices are equal to Vlads prices if they were Euros. Here ya go:

92fs $840

Sig226 $900

G34 $900

P99 $720

G17 $780

Sig226ST $1600

USP9C $1020

Tanfoglio Stock $1100

Para LDA $1600

Damn, converted to $$$ those are some massive prices. Any other members form The Netherlands, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Garfield]

Spook, your info seems to be ok !

[RogerT]

Hi. Here are some Swedish prices found on the web (different gun dealers home pages).

Beretta 92FS: 930$

CZ 75B: 680$

CZ 85B: 785$

CZ P01: not found

CZ SP01 (or SP01 Tactical): not found

Glock 17: 745$

H&K USP Custom, 9mm: 993$

SIG P226: 1325$

SIG P226 X Five: 2360$

Tanfoglio Stock (or Stock Custom): not found.

[vikings501]

Lexington Kentucky gun shop yesterday had a new glock 17 with 17 round mags for 489.99 plus tax. (6%)

[Leszek]

Hi,

Polish retail price list:

CZ-75 ~ 740 $

P-01 ~900$

SP-01 ~we're still waiting

Glock 17 ~ 610 $

HK USP ~ 1000$

HK USP Expert ~ 1700$

ParaOrd LDA 18.9 ~ 1200$

SIG XFive ~ 3200$

not too cheep;(

regards

Leszek

[Vlad]

This morning I was back in the same shop I quoted earlier and I realized that some of the prices I gave you were for used guns. For new guns he charges:

92FS $750

Sig226 $899

Vlad

[gmshtr]

Beretta 92FS - $650

CZ 75/85 - $489

CZ P01 - n/a

CZ SP01 (or SP01 Tactical) - n/a

Glock 17 - $515

H&K USP - $699

SIG P226 - $725

SIG P226 Sport (or X Five) - 1100

Tanfoglio Stock (or Stock Custom) - n/a

These are the approximate prices at Shooters Paradise, my shop in the Washington, DC area. I could be off on some of these, but not by much. Next time I take a trip overseas, I'm bringing some stock guns! I can't believe some of these prices!

Phil

[spook]

Next time I take a trip overseas, I'm bringing some stock guns! I can't believe some of these prices! 

Me neither. I think an Austrian designed firearm should be cheaper in Austria than anywhere else But then again, this whole price difference is probably because of the Euro. Euro:Dollar started out 1:1 in 2001. I heard on the news today that Euro:Dollar is now 1:1,3. So prices are actually still about the same. I just wish I could order my guns in the US.

[orimar3]

Philippine Retail Prices

Beretta 92FS - U$900

CZ75/85 - U$850

CZPO1- n/a

CZSPO1 (or SPO1 Tactical)- n/a

Glock- U$825

HK USP- U$ 850

SIGP226- U$ 950

SIGP226 Sport (or X-Five)- n/a

Shocking, huh? Note that we pay 30% taxes and duties on imported firearms.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

This information is very interesting. In order to try and make some sense of it all, I'll use the Glock 17 as the "benchmark" and compare the other guns as a price percentage by locality, because competitors will usually make their decision based on what's available where they live. Moreover, different taxes and duties from locality to locality will make a global comparison virtually impossible:

USA: (Phil Strader)

G17 $515 (92FS +26%) (CZ75 -05%) (USP +36%) (P226 +41%) (P226X5 +114%)

PHI: (Myro)

G17 $825 (92FS +09%) (CZ75 +03%) (USP +03%) (P226 +15%)

DEN: (Dalmas)

G17 $964 (92FS +42%) (CZ75 +12%) (USP +28%) (P226 +??%) (P226X5 +113%)

ITA: (Luca)

G17 $800 (92FS +41%) (CZ75 +00%) (USP +36%) (P226 +84%) (TanfS +92%) (TanfSC +119%)

ARG: (Pierruiggi)

G17 $790 (92FS +00%) (CZ75 -43%) (USP +39%)

NED: (Spook)

G17 $780 (92FS +08%) (CZ75 +??%) (USP +31%) (P226 +15%) (P226ST +105%) (TanfS +41%)

SWE: (Roger)

G17 $745 (92FS +25%) CZ75 +00%) (USP +33%) (P226 +78%) (P226X5 +216%)

POL: (Leszek)

G17 $610 (92FS +??%) (CZ75 +21%) (USP +64%) (P226 +??%) (P226X5 +425%)

AUS: (Radagast)

G17 $510 (92FS +53%) (CZ75 +55%) (USP +47%) (TanfS +45%) (P226X5 +380%)

THA: (Peter Walker)

G17 $1,330

Now the real challenge is to answer "What exactly is an Equipment Race?". To me, it's clear that regardless of how good a driver I might be, if I enter a Formula 1 race with a Skoda, I'm pretty sure that Stevie Wonder driving a Ferrari with training wheels will still whup my ass.

However, when it comes to IPSC shooting, if I walk up to David Sevigny at WSXIV with a $3,500 P226X5 in my holster, and I tell him "You and your Wal-Mart G17 are gonna be toast, bucko!", he'd respectfully remind me to take my medication, because Dave is a gentleman and he'd never make fun of somebody in desperate need of therapy.

What do you guys think?

[Vlad]

I think, and this is just my opinion, that folks like Dave S are true exceptions with more talent then most of us can even imagine. I think that it is also possible that Dave S and the Glock are matched to each other and that it may happen that a stock glock with a stock trigger feel best to him.

But I also think that for most shooters that gun/human mind meld doesn't happen that often. I KNOW that a better trigger allows me to shoot better. I know that I shoot a CZ better then a Glock because it fits my hand better. I'm sure I could train myself to shoot as well with a Glock as I do with a CZ but it would be no fun. If the equipment makes no difference, then why do top compentitors in other divisons go after the last bit of performance out of their gear? Shooting skills are important, but no one is serious about winning Limited with the small WWII 1911 iron sights, and no one is winning Production with a Lorcin

In my opinion the best way to avoid the $2000 Production gun, is to allow folks to make the $100 changes to their $600 guns which otherwise they would have to pay for from the factory in the more expensive models. If a feature is legal on the $2k gun and it is illegal on the $500 gun just because the manufacturer decided that fiber optic sights should cost A LOT more, then you haven't avoided an gear race, you just handed the reins to the industry. Define the features which are allowed and let shooters be shooters. The argument that this should only be allowed in Standard or Limited forgets that the number one feature of Production is No Single Action. As far as anyone can tell me that was the driving force, but somehow along the way it has turned into "whatever Glock is willing to sell you". I think that is a mistake.

Ok .. who needs the soap box? I think I'm done with it.

Vlad

[shred]

I think it's funny that the division where all the guns look and act most alike is the one where anything goes.

[Nik Habicht]

I'll preface this by saying that I've never shot a production match under IPSC rules. I've been shooting the same Glock 34s in USPSA and IDPA since I went to my first match about five years ago. Under USPSa rules it's unlikely that I'd ever consider another gun seriously. Under IPSC rules however, as soon as magazine capacity hit 20+1 (three rounds more than I could stuff in a G-34) I'd have to look at making a switch.

That's why I think the best way to prevent an equipment race is to limit mag capacity in Production Division. (And I'd probably have a problem if someone wanted to allow comps and red dots in PD all of a sudden. Does this remind anyone of IPSC/USPSA history circa 1990-1992?)

[Vlad]

Under IPSC rules however, as soon as magazine capacity hit 20+1 (three rounds more than I could stuff in a G-34) I'd have to look at making a switch.

Getting there .. On the CZ forum Angus reported being able to stuff 19 in his SP-01 mags.

Vlad

[Vince Pinto]

That's why I think the best way to prevent an equipment race is to limit mag capacity in Production Division.

The matter was discussed when the division was being visualised, and it's been discussed every year since IPSC introduced Production Division in 1999, and I'm sure it will be discussed again.

Call me naive, but I have considerable faith in the mainstream OFMs, and I get this confidence because I'm in regular contact with many of the major players and we have an (unstated, but implied) "gentleman's agreement" that nobody is going to play (what Brits affectionately call) "silly buggers", at least when it comes to mag capacity. To me, the fact that XYZ company now offers a 19 round magazine which is 2 rounds more than a Glock 17 (my benchmark) , is neither here nor there.

Anyway, the debate continues ...........