Production Division Gun Prices

[Flexmoney]

I think it's funny that the division where all the guns look and act most alike is the one where anything goes.

THAT is likely the definition of an equipment race.

Either the gun doesn't matter and people choose the option that is cheap, reliable and readily available (like we currently have in Production with Glock, CZ, etc.)...

Or, we get guns, where every new advantage is quickly adopted. Like in Open.

[Flexmoney]

I am with Nik.

I think most here know that I shoot a fairly stock G35 in Limited.

I don't feel disadvantaged there. (well, there are a few times that I do...mostly 22 round courses going against Para shooters)

I am a died-hard believer that it is not the gun...it is the shooter.

However, even I would have to look at switching to a Production gun with a capacity of 19+

[driver8M3]

If the equipment makes no difference, then why do top compentitors in other divisons go after the last bit of performance out of their gear?

part of that is human nature...same reason people put wings and spoilers on their street cars. you've got money...and you're going to spend it.

does the equipment make a difference??? CZ just hired a couple of guys that made it to the top with glocks. that says something...though i'm not exactly sure what.

[Vince Pinto]

I think it's funny that the division where all the guns look and act most alike is the one where anything goes.

Bingo-bango! Shred, you're wise beyond your tender years.

If there are people out there in la-la land who would be willing to spend from $1,000 to $3,000 more on a gun, largely to get an extra 2-3 round mag capacity, the problem is not the divisional rules. I believe that even if we had an NN round mag capacity, there are still some people who would buy the latest gadget at Guns R Us.

Remember that our longest COF is 32 rounds, so a guy with 17 round magazines will usually (but not always), have only 1 extra reload when compared to a guy with 22 round magazines. Speaking as a guy who shoots a gun with only 13 rounds, I don't think that amounts to a hill of beans.

[Miky]

Vince, the concept with which production created categoria, was the one to use gun as it leaves makes, under that criterion.

I believe that the solution so that all can compete in equality of conditions is that the pistols authorized, do not have sights type Bomar - Fiber and magwell and that the price does not surpass u$s 1500. Of this form if tomorrow STI, SVI, Tanfo or Para, want to make a pistol of Limited for Production cannot do it, the same for the competitors whom they love to custom his gun.

Production is category that permit to return to be born to the Practical Shooting in many country with problems economy for that reason I believe that it must follow the regulation like in his beginning and prohibiting Para LDA limited - Tanfo Custom Stock and all those that have elements of limited.

I shoot with gun of u$s 250. - and I win to the competitors of with guns of 800 or 1000, for that reason I think that gun does not do when shooter, but all we know that to have a Bomar, magwell, it magrelease you extend and front sight of fiber, help when shooter much and they can allow him to obtain one better performence.

Greetings

[Radagast]

Australian advertised prices:

Beretta 92FS =$782.00

Beretta 92 Elite II = $1564.00

Glock 17 = $510.00 ( I sell them $50 cheaper to club members)

CZ75 = $792.00

H&K USP $748.00

Para LDA LTD $1230.00

USP custom sport: $918.00

There have been recent adds for a race version of the P226, I'm not sure which model designation, for $2450.00

Tanfoglio (base model, not sure of designation) $740.00

Ken

[Flexmoney]

If there are people out there...who would be willing to spend...$$$...to get an extra 2-3 round mag capacity [which is an equipment advantage], the problem is not the divisional rules.

I just don't know how you cannot see that as an equipment issue, thus...an equipment race.

I can only believe it is because you think the stement below equates to "not an equipment advantage?

...our longest COF is 32 rounds, so a guy with 17 round magazines will usually (but not always), have only 1 extra reload when compared to a guy with 22 round magazines.

One extra reload is a disadvantage. But, a bigger issue is arrays. An array can be up to 9 rounds big. (and we all know there are stages designed around the maximum rounds that can be out in an array...regardless of how good or bad the idea is)

Speaking as a guy who shoots a gun with only 13 rounds, I don't think that amounts to a hill of beans.

That is cool and all, but it has been my experience that being down a number of rounds is not competitive.

[Nik Habicht]

Two eight round arrays with steel in each and one step in between ports --- and I'd be much happier with a 21 round gun than an 18 round gun. (and Flex can attest to the fact that I don't miss much....)

I know of a number of shooters in Limited here in the US who are spending $50 or more per mag to get one extra round in the gun. They wouldn't be doing it --- if they weren't convinced that it's an advantage some of the time.

Respectfully --- just because you haven't perceived it with a 13 round G-21, doesn't mean that it's not a perfectly valid experience for someone else....

[pwalker]

Bangkok

Glock 17

1,330 USD

a lot of which is tax

Regards

Peter

[Vince Pinto]

Miguel,

I'd like to begin by firstly wishing you a warm welcome to the Brian Enos Forums. Now onto your comments:

I believe that the solution so that all can compete in equality of conditions is that the pistols authorized, do not have sights type Bomar - Fiber and magwell and that the price does not surpass u$s 1500.

We can never have a $$ criteria because, as you can see from my earlier summary, prices vary considerably from place to place (e.g. a G17 ranges from US$515 to US$1,330).

I shoot with gun of u$s 250. - and I win to the competitors of with guns of  800 or 1000, for that reason I think that gun does not do when shooter, but all we know that to have a Bomar, magwell, it magrelease you extend and front sight of fiber, help when shooter much and they can allow him to obtain one better performence.

I agree that the price of the gun does not win a match - it's the talent of the guy behind the gun. In any case, how can we possibly object to gun manufacturers making guns for a specific division, and complying with criteria we've dictated? We built it, they came, and the guys shooting it seem to be as happy as pigs in doo-doo. What am I missing here?

And I'll say it again: we have four other divisions where competitors can modify their guns to their heart's content. Production Division is an entirely different (and highly successful) beast - the sky is not falling.

[Vince Pinto]

Nik/Flex,

Yes, I realise that certain target arrays can "force" you to reload more often than usual, but that's why I stated earlier:

"a guy with 17 round magazines will usually (but not always), have only 1 extra reload".

[Radagast]

AFAIK I was one of the first to start arguing with Vince about Production criteria, now to me it's become rather old. in Australia the main guns are Glock 17, H&K USP, Beretta 92FS, and base model Tanfoglios. This is after a government seizure which took just about every production gun available. Most could have upgraded to the next level, instead they bought the same toys with a slightly longer barrel and 10 round mags to be Australian legal and kept shooting. I actually down graded, turning in my Beretta Elite II and purchasing a standard 92FS.

Due to the recent ban on .40 cal for IPSC _every_ standard division IPSC shooter went through an evolution of purchasing new firearms.

Many went for custom built STI 2011s, many bought factory STI edges, but a lot also bought Bul M5s, springfield armoury single stacks, STI Trojans, Kimbers and single action Tanfoglios, all in 9mm or .38 super, because they prefered them or it was what was available and they wanted to get straight back into shooting instead of waiting for a gunsmith, or it was simply more affordable.

A thing that a lot of us who compete to win, who spend more time on the open circuit than at our own clubs forget is that to the vast majority of shooters it's about the ability own a gun and shoot it in interesting scenarios with friends. The Nth degree of improvement in the gun to help win the nationals and get a shirt is not in their mind set. They want a cool toy and that is all.

If a USD $3000.00 production gun hits the market, some shooters will buy it, because they want to win at any cost and think it will give them some benefit. Most will not because it doesn't pass their cost/benefit comparison, or it dosn't suit their idea of cool.

Eventually improvements to new models will make some guns uncompetitive in open competition. So be it. I'd rather have new toys being developed for when my old one wears out, it'll give me new options to choose from. Our Government (IPSC) should not be in the business of banning guns based on cost or power. I'll give you an analogy.

In 1973 the Australian stock car/production sedan 500 mile race was won by the Ford Falcon Phase III GTHO. This was at the time the worlds fastest Four door sedan. And you could buy the race version at any dealer and drive it on the road.

The Phase IV was under development and was planned to be capable of 200 miles per hour, the other manufacturers planned similar cars. The Murdoch press found out about the story and ran a series of articles on these dangerous cars capable of three times the speed limit (sound familar? It's how they pushed the gun bans here in Australia). The Australian Government leant on the manufacturers, threatening to cancel their fleet contracts if they were produced. The cars were cancelled and car design in Australia stagnated. It took 27 years for Australia to start exporting cars again, in that time three manufacturers closed and became importers.

In 1977 if IPSC had declared "Thou shall only shoot GI 1911s with hardball because that's what Jeff Cooper says is the one true gun and ammo combination" IPSC would have stagnated. There would have been no STI/SV/Bul/Para, probably no really fast progressive presses (shooting single stack round counts, why bother?) No ambi safetys, beavertails, grip stippling, fibreoptics,etc.

Yes there has been an equipment race, however,at least in Australia, adjusted for inflation a stock colt in 1980 cost as much as a bul M5 IPSC model today. The equipment got better but the price eventually settled at the old level. I can forsee this happening with Production guns as well, within the limitations of the division rules.

Remember, we can already retrofit factory go fast bits to a production gun, change sights, add grip tape. The only areas that really can add a competitive advantage are a) weight, mag capacity, c) sights and d) trigger.

a) Weight. If you need it, CZ, Beretta SIG and I assume Tanfoglio all now make steel versions, or heavier steel versions of their guns. No one every guaranteed you would never want to change your gun in Production.

Mag capacity. Try after market mags. Mecgar make 17 round replacements for 15 round beretta mags for example. It's all academic for Australian, American and Canadian shooters as we are restricted to 10 rounds at home. Forget the 4 people from each country who qualify for the national team. They don't count. (And yes I'm one of them, so I'm not talking from a point of jealousy.)

c) Sights: Vince has already flagged changing the rules to allow fibreoptics, if this goes through it's a level playing field. (I'm against banning them, see above.)

d) Trigger: Some guns have crap triggers, some have good ones, some have great ones. I look at it like this. The more improvement, the better the issue weapons of the future will be. I prefer cops being able to hit the bad guy instead of the bystanders. Anyway, how would you right a rule to mandate a moderately crap trigger so everyone felt they were competing alike? Oh, it's already been done. Minimum 5 pound pull on the first shot.

That's my rant for the day. Catch you later.

Ken

[Vince Pinto]

In 1973 the Australian stock car/production sedan 500 mile race was won by the Ford  Falcon Phase III GTHO. This was at the time the worlds fastest Four door sedan. And you could buy the race version at any dealer and drive it on the road.

<THREAD DRIFT>

I remember it well. Bathurst 500 and the driver was Alan Moffat, and getting a GTHOIII was the most important thing in the world to me at the time, and I would've sold a kidney to get one. Hell, I would've sold my girlfriend's kidney! Never managed to get a GTHO, but my 1977 Chrysler Charger with the 6 litre engine was pretty hot.

</THREAD DRIFT>

[Radagast]

Vince you are getting old. Here I am agreeing with you .......um did I really do that...... and all you can do is recall old car races? I think I can recall eating Heinz baby food back then.

Moffats car comes on the market occasionally, the last time I looked they wanted $70,000 aussie about three or four years ago. I guess if you sold a lot of Glocks.....

Ken

BTW what was the girlfriends reaction to the kidney donation plan?

[Vince Pinto]

BTW what was the girlfriends reaction to the kidney donation plan?

She gave me the ultimate punishment - she married me

[Skywalker]

First,

let me say that I don't care about equipment race.

I mean, if Dave S can whip everybody's ass with a box-stock G17, there is no sense in spending $2'000 in a Production gun ("it's the indian...not the arrow"). But if someone truly believes a $2'000 gun can give him a competitive advantage against anybody else, and he can afford it, I don't really care what he does.

Having said this, I must admit an equipment race is already taking place. I'm talking strictly about Italy (the market I know), but here it is: the Tanfoglio T75R is a blued double action, frame-mounted safety, fixed sights, conventional barrel, 17-rouders mags (despite the fact that OFM declares 16, the mags will hold 17), that sells for about € 550. It's approved for production and I used it for a while (not in matches though). Mags sell for a ridiculous € 15 each. With less than € 600 you can have gun and 4 mags ready to compete.

Yes, you'll have to polish the whole trigger mechanism from burrs, you'll have to sight your gun in (maybe filing the front sight which is too tall), but that's all.

Then came the Tanfoglio Stock: basically the same gun in Stanless Steel, with adjustable sights and bull barrel. They say it's assembled by the performance center of Tanfoglio, but I doubt it having seen several of them not running reliably from the box (DA percussion problems above all). It sells for double the price of the T95R.

Now it comes the Stock Custom. Basically a double-action 9mm Limited HC Custom with higher mag capacity over the old Stock (Tanfoglio website declares they mated a Stock slide and barrel to a Limited Custom frame). This gun will have a retail price of €1'350.

If this is not an equipment race...

[miche]

Venezuela

Gun shop prices (including tax: 15%):

Glock 17.... US$1615

Beretta ..... US$2083

Miche

[bulm540]

This is the vote from the Danish jury...

Beretta 92FS - $1375

CZ 75/85 - $1085

Glock 17 - $964

H&K USP (expert) - $1242

SIG P226 Sport (or X Five) - $2052

Porsche 911 Carrera Cab 2003 used - $ 431 034

Denmark is not cheap...

DAmn!!!!!

[Dead Buff]

A bit late, but here are Namibian prices:

92FS: ±1200

CZ 75/85: ±1000

CZ P01: ±1200

CZ SP01 (or SP01 Tactical): ±1500

Glock 17: ±1400

H&K USP: ±1400

SIG P226: ±2400

SIG P226 Sport (or X Five): ±2500

Tanfoglio Stock (or Stock Custom): no idea....

Para LDA: ±2200

All above in USD

Personally I have never been bothered about the price of a gun...you shoot what you want and can afford and win/loose on your own don't blame the gun. And here a Rev, Std or Prod gun will all cost about the same. Mod and Open go for ±USD4500 with all...

I shoot a Std div Para that cost me a total of ±USD1000 to date incl the gun itself...second hand stuff work if you want it and don't wanna blow your budget on something new or fancy...

[Kimberkid]

as a total thread drift.... I find it odd that most people are agreeing that if/when a $3,000 production gun comes out, people will buy it. However, no one will shoot Bianchi because as they say "you have to have a $3,000 gun to shoot it". I know a bunch of Bianchi guns that can be had in the $1500 range right now. Just some food for thought I guess is all. If my vote is worth anything, I cant imagine anything sweeter than my Glock 34 for production, and I'm still not ever gonna win anything serious with it, so what do I care if someone sells their house/kids/wife for the new hot set up. I havent checked, so I am purely speculating here, but if you look at the top finishers in every division at the 04 Nats, I dont think there is a terrible amount of difference between them regardless of division. Like I said, I am speculating as I dont have a results copy in front of me. But if Sevigny, Angus, and Petros are finishing about or even near the same as Tomasie, Strader and the others, what does that tell you about gun set up?

[driver8M3]

sevigny's nationals score was about 86% of the limited winning score.

[Flexmoney]

However, no one will shoot Bianchi because as they say "you have to have a $3,000 gun to shoot it". I know a bunch of Bianchi guns that can be had in the $1500 range right now. Just some food for thought I guess is all.

I'm not sure if this is were you meant to go or not...

But, you do make the point that the perception of expensive equipment is what keeps many people away.