38SuperDub Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Let me ask you this Mike. Lets say the swinger gave a shooter an ADVANTAGE - it stayed presented too long and allowed the shooter to get an easy 2 Alpha when everyone else was having trouble. It was obviously set wrong but the shooter was given the option to reshoot and didn't. Is this fair to EVERYONE else? I think most people can agree that they just want a fair match. When you hit the point that you cannot tell which shooters it was set for and which it wasn't - you have to either make everyone reshoot it that you are not sure of or toss the stage. Everyone paid the same entry fee to shoot a fair match and have the same opportunity as other shooters. You owe all the competitors that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) So, I was on squad 13 and we didn't realize that the activator popper was one of the MGM forward or reverse falling ones and were just setting it like a normal popper. We made it about 8 people through our 10 person squad when one shooter hit it three times in the scoring area and just stopped himself from the COF (balzy). Luckily when Troy came over he inspected the target instead of just shooting it and noticed it was set impropperly. He asked how we had been resetting it and we all said we weren't putting the little front stop up (not sure what it is actually called). He ordered a reshoot for our whole squad after setting it propperly and having to recalibrate it. We all reshot the stage, after our reshoots we talked to the R.O. and stated our concern that the popper still wasn't activating consistantly for all competitors and she declided to call Troy over. The ladies squad was up behind us and had an issue with the activator/swinger and were given the option to reshoot a the stage. After hearing about that ruling myself and and a couple of competitors went to Troy and we were given the option of doing a second reshoot on the COF if we felt that the popper activated the swinger slowly. I didn't hear a rule number cited nor did I ask. Jake - what about this? Asking Troy or not - this is pretty clear how it was handled. The above shooter ASKED for another reshoot and was given one. Still the same question what rule did Troy used to decide it, and the only person that can answer it would be Troy, so has anyone asked him yet? Or has anyone asked Amidon as he was there as well, hell maybe they got ahold of the Ad's that were there, Phil and Kim and made a new rule Edited October 1, 2013 by JakeMartens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 And that is the problem. How do you determine who was disadvantaged. Tossing a stage is not something to be taken lightly. So you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Again, would the same be done at any other match? Or because it was nationals it happened. And it did happen, it's not "hearsay". Who was affected? Does not matter, or should not anyway. How many shooters affected, again should not matter. Who it affects in standings, again should not matter. The bottom line, to me any way, is a rule was broken to keep a stage in a match and to not affect other shooters that shot that stage already. Would it happen anywhere else? MD's yer thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Someone can correct me if I am wrong but isn't the issue here what is the proper way to deal with a sticky/improperly reset popper that materializes after several days of shooting? It is not an issue that shows up suddenly from one shooter to the next but rather comes on slowly. So as a RM how do you fix the issue without tossing the stage out? How far back do you go on the squads that already shot it to see if any of them had a definite problem? Do you order all of them to reshoot or do you leave it up to the honor system and apply your best judgement? I would be interested in how Troy came up with the decision he made, but I know it was not a decision that was easily made. Option one allows the stage to be saved but makes it hard to determine who was actually disadvantaged. Option two tosses the stage and changes the overall rankings as those who shot it well lose position and those who tanked it gain position. What is the correct way to deal with this? That is a very interesting hypothetical, but according the reports of the shooters who were at the match it wasn't an issue that came on suddenly, it was an issue that affected some shooters and not others due to the way the popper was reset. For some it was reset correctly, not so for others. The rest of your questions are compelling regardless of the situation, but in this case I don't believe it was an activator that slowly changed over the course of the match. that is my understanding as well. I thought it was a particular type of popper (like a forward-faller latch, but that falls backwards instead), that was getting set too high. This is one of the reasons that the RO's often reset things that are easy to reset wrong. It's annoying enough with something that is obviously an immediate reshoot when it is not set right, but it sounds like the popper(s) in question were a little less obvious. At any rate, I personally believe that the RM (just like an arbitration board) has the authority to do things that an RO or CRO can not do. Lots and lots of situations don't fit neatly into the rules. I haven't heard anyone complain that they felt hosed or cheated by the situation, which makes me think this thread is much ado about nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Let me ask you this Mike. Lets say the swinger gave a shooter an ADVANTAGE - it stayed presented too long and allowed the shooter to get an easy 2 Alpha when everyone else was having trouble. It was obviously set wrong but the shooter was given the option to reshoot and didn't. that situation has nothing whatsoever to do with this one. It's fun to make stuff up tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 not to hijack this thread, but look at stage 4 if you wanna see one where tall folks got a distinct advantage. just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 ... I personally believe that the RM (just like an arbitration board) has the authority to do things that an RO or CRO can not do... Exactly, as spelled out by rule 7.1.6 (the ''cuz I said so" rule) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Let me ask you this Mike. Lets say the swinger gave a shooter an ADVANTAGE - it stayed presented too long and allowed the shooter to get an easy 2 Alpha when everyone else was having trouble. It was obviously set wrong but the shooter was given the option to reshoot and didn't. that situation has nothing whatsoever to do with this one. It's fun to make stuff up tho. Sure it does. Didnt you see the video of the shooter who had longer presentation of the swinger that opted not to reshoot? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 And we're back to the arguing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts