Home defense?

[Nik Habicht]

AOW???

That said --- if I had to move through my house, I have way more faith in my handgun abilities than my SG abilities. If I'm bunkering up until the city cops arrive, it's pretty much a moot point.....

[michael_aos]

AOW???

That said --- if I had to move through my house, I have way more faith in my handgun abilities than my SG abilities.  If I'm bunkering up until the city cops arrive, it's pretty much a moot point.....

"Any Other Weapon" -- NFA rules that apply to shotguns with a barrel >12" and <18". You have to register with the BATFE and pay $5.00.

Mike

[michael_aos]

Anyone happen to know if the Surefire Remington 1100 replacement forend fits the 20ga model too?

Mike

[Duane Thomas]

No offense, but I have to wonder if the people recommending 12 gauge shotguns and AR-15s have ever fired one inside a small room without hearing protection. We're talking LOUD. Fire more than a few rounds and you're probably looking at permanent hearing damage.

I'm not crazy about pump shotguns. Racking the slide is a movement that's really easy to screw up under stress, and if you shortstroke the action it'll lock the gun up so hard it'll take tools - and time - to unstick. Autos are better, but they still have the disadvantages of extreme noise, heavy recoil, low capacity, and slow, fumble-prone reloading.

Really, if I wanted something other than a handgun, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with anything better than a good example of M1 Carbine. Easier to shoot than a handgun, won't blow out your eardrums. Jim Cirillo says that in his years with the New York City Police Stakout Unit he saw men shot with .38, 9mm, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, .223 and 3" Magnum 00 buck, and the only gun he ever saw with a 100 percent stop ratio was their M1 Carbines loaded with Winchester hollow softpoints.

My $.02.

[michael_aos]

Really, if I wanted something other than a handgun, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with anything better than a good example of M1 Carbine.

My $.02.

As I've read more, I see that coming up more often than I expected.

I shot a friends M1 clone this summer and it was a BLAST.

I'd probably want one of the new Auto-Ordnance. More expensive than a 20ga Remington 1100.

Mike

[Duane Thomas]

Be sure to check out one in the gunshop before you buy. Not familiar with the Auto Ordnance, but frankly the new production M1 Carbines I have seen make me eager to finish paying off the minty 1943 vintage M1 Carbine I have on layaway. It's hard to beat a nicely preserved military gun in this design.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not crazy about pump shotguns. Racking the slide is a movement that's really easy to screw up under stress, and if you shortstroke the action it'll lock the gun up so hard it'll take tools - and time - to unstick. Autos are better, but they still have the disadvantages of extreme noise, heavy recoil, low capacity, and slow, fumble-prone reloading.

Is that because you'll have a round stuck between the carrier and the bolt? If so, Remington at least have come up with a redesigned shell lifter that should make it a non-issue.....

Noise is of course an issue --- but I'd take hearing damage over the alternative. It would be a really bad day in my life.....

Love the M-1 carbine idea --- but in NJ they're banned....

[EricW]

DT,

Yes, magnum buckshot is loud as hell, but shotguns with just regular birdshot or reduced recoil loads are much quieter than a handgun. And that's all you really need for home defense.

Just my $.02

[Skywalker]

regular birdshot or reduced recoil loads are much quieter than a handgun.

Surely quieter than my Taururs 617CP 2" ported .357 M, which I carry alternatively to a S&W 6904, but don't use for home defense...

[Larry White]

Home invasion with 2 to 4 bad guys seems to be the latest deal here. When the horde from hell is in the hall I think hearing protection takes a back seat. Lots of noise, lots of flash and lots of shot going down range sounds like a good thing to me. Larry

[Pierruiggi]

Thank God I've never been in a situation where I needed to use my guns to survive, and I hope I never will. But I know several people (LEO) who have fought, survived and won gunfights and they all coincide that you don't notice sound, not the gunfire, not people yelling, nothing. They told me they suffered from tunnel vision too, focused on the threat; and a sensation as if everything was happening in slow motion. As they told me, and I paraphrase, "you don't THINK about what's going on, you hardly notice consciously what's going on, you don't hear anything and see only the guy or guys shooting at you; it just happens that all boils down to what is ingrained in you. In your subconscious mind." (Yeah, this guy is kinda phylosophical... or at least highly analitycal)

Even though this same person has suffered hearing injury in a gunfight (another police officer fired an SMG inches away from his right ear), he didn't noticed it until the gunfight was over.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Ladies, please don't take this the wrong way. I love women, and i love guns. but a full power 12 gauge slug or 00 buck is gonna hurt.... BAD... and what i am about to advocate applies to everyone not just you.

Reduced recoil 00 buck in a 12 gauge is about the ultimate home defense weapon, why reduced recoil. because it does not hinder penetration of humans by more than an inch or so (which is still max of 14-16" with lead buck) they do about hte same as a 9mm pistol. BUT they have 9 times the bullets!!!

why reduced recoil.... they still function my benelli, i can tripple tap with them. slugs... man a double tap with a 1oz slug... NOTHING going to say that won't hurt. Game loads out to across room distances may penetrate but i'm not taking my chances.

Center the gun on body and say goodbye slime. no fine aiming required. Sounds that scare ME as a user are a 12 gauge and an AK 47.

But first thing i would do is MOVE. i would NEVER put my signifigant other in a situation where she did not feel completely safe.. and i usually date pretty tough girls. (cute. but they have grit).

Being the person i am i go a lot of places i shouldn't, i'm well trained in many forms of combat, know what to look for in an assailant, and stay pretty diplomatic when i can. But under no circumstances would i allow someone i loved to be in danger.

The dog is a great idea too. but get a Good one.. as in professionally trained. nothing worse than a cowardly security system.

Edited November 25, 2004 by EricW

[kimel]

I keep slugs in my side saddle for one reason...bears. When I go investigate that funny noise I don't know if I am up against a racoon, a feral cat, the neighbor's stupid dog, a doped up idiot or a bear. We haven't had a bear in town now for a couple years but it does happen.

We also have had cougar but I figure #4 TacBuck will take care of everything but the bear sized stuff. Slugs however, will end the bear problem rather quickly. I prefer RR slugs because I want to be able to double tap the bear if necessary.

Those that live in major urban areas are probably only concerned with the homo sapien form of intruder but in rural America we have to be concerned about a lot more than that. I don't want to have to think about what to grab on the way to investigate a problem.

[michael_aos]

I really think I'm going to go with an auto shotgun. Most likely a Remington 1100.

Just haven't decided if I want 20ga, or 12ga with reduced-recoil loads.

Mike

[Duane Thomas]

When the horde from hell is in the hall I think hearing protection takes a back seat.

True. But why destroy your hearing when you don't have to?

[Larry White]

Upon hearing the back door being wacked open with a axe, I slid from the bed, pulled on my jeans and boots, put on my sombero( the one like Clint wore), doubled up on hearing protection, both plugs and muffs, retrieved the shotgun, charged it and wandered off down the hall. Good fiction, but you'll be lucky if you get to the gun.-------Larry

[kimel]

Having been in a Chevy Impala (windows up) when a 12ga was discharged and in a small (10 x10 maybe) room when a 30-06 was discharged I can tell you that while there may have been hearing loss on my part it wasn't enough to notice and it sure wasn't instantaneous.

[neither incident involved my firearms nor myself pulling the trigger nor my car nor my apartment]

I am pretty sure I lost more hearing at a Styx concert in 1978 or thereabouts.

The only way I would even consider hearing protection during home defense would be electronic muffs. I wouldn't want to risk NOT hearing something important.

Edited November 30, 2004 by kimel

[kellyn]

Here is what you need:

1) a good defense attorney (one who is both knowledgable in self-defense and friendly with the local DA);

2) personal knowledge of your state's justification statutes;

3) pre-planning for different scenarios based on your knowledge of your state's justification statutes;

4) a reliable handgun (for me a Springfield XD) with factory ammo (preferably what your cops issue - for me 9mm 124g +P+ Hydra-Shok);

5) Surefire light;

6) if you really feel the need for a long gun, not a bad idea, the shotgun school of thought has merits as does the AR15 school (like Alexander, I go either way). But I would avoid any NFA type guns

7) and most importantly do not blast anyone unless they need it.

[Shooter Grrl]

I really think I'm going to go with an auto shotgun.  Most likely a Remington 1100.

Just haven't decided if I want 20ga, or 12ga with reduced-recoil loads.

Mike

Buy the 12 ga with reduced recoil loads. My 20 ga is NOT reliable! I don't *trust* it to save my life!

My personal suggestion to men looking for home defense that their wives might need to use is a revolver. Good stopping power, cocking noise is as universal as the pump and there is only one step *pull the trigger*.

And yes, I follow my own advice, religously. My revolver is NEVER far away from me!

[Dalmas]

there is no such thing as home defense in this part of the world. We are only allowed to have our guns locked in a safe, no loaded magazines, speedloaders or such ready. If you use you gun on an intruder you have to be able to explain how you could retreive your weapon out of the safe, load it and use it.. it will not be accepted as an valid excuse and you will sure as death and taxes go straight to jail if you use your guns.

You probably will do more time than an illegal user of guns since you are licensed owner of a weapon and should know that you are not allowed to use it. Here comes the real kicker, if it was icy conditions and you had not cleared your walkway and the perp slips and breaks his hip while transporting your 42" flat screen out the door, he can sue you for that...wonderful.

The good thing about our system is that death by gunfire is not a top 10 cause of death, and the perps don't carry guns becase we don't - that saves lives. The drawback is that if i protect myself or my loved ones, nothing will protect me, but I rather live and do time then end up 6 feet uder.

Edited December 2, 2004 by Dalmas

[oddjob]

A .223 semi-auto loaded with any factory soft point or JHP. An attached light and a sling as well. Its a good general purpose weapon for the house.

[Dead Buff]

All the above are good and fine. Like a 12ga...........but......most home defences happen at night and around here that means dark. The muzzle blast/flash will bind you for up to 30sec, so what if they were 2 or more....

A LEO friend from Germany also told me of colleagues who fired .357Mags in a closed room...ballance and co-ordination went out the door for some...it is loud!!!

For my wife I have a .32 S&W Long rev loaded with hollow WC bullets...not loud, minimal flash, no jams and easy to use under pressure. For garden defence we use a Mini 14 or a FAL, indoors the .32/.22 pistol or .40Short&Weak Para (with being prepared for noise and temp blindness).

To wake up the alarm chimes next to our bed - don't wanna scare them off to early, do we....

[michael_aos]

Buy the 12 ga with reduced recoil loads. My 20 ga is NOT reliable! I don't *trust* it to save my life!

Who makes a good, short-ish barreled semi-auto 12ga?

I poked around the Remington website last night and all the 1100's had longer barrels (except the 1100CM, which is expensive).

I did notice some 18" 11-87's on the RemingtonLE site.

Mike

[rhino]

All the above are good and fine. Like a 12ga...........but......most home defences happen at night and around here that means dark. The muzzle blast/flash will bind you for up to 30sec, so what if they were 2 or more....

That is not my experience. I have never had trouble with muzzle flash "blinding" me when shooting at night, either with pistol or AR. Some of the ARs I've shot at night have had enormous fireballs at the muzzle, but it's just not the problem some people conjecture that it might be.

That goes from all lighting conditions from daylight, to dusk/twilight, to so black you can't see your hand. It's just not that much of a problem.

In fact, the last time I was in a class practicing transitions from carbine to pistol, I used my light for the first few shots with the carbine, then when I went to the pistol, I could still see the outline of the targets well enough to get good hits with just the tritium insert in my front sight. If I'd been "blind(ed) ... for up to 30sec," that would have been impossible.

[Dead Buff]

With a pistol and small calibre (read not .378 Weathetby Mag) rifle I believe it is no prob. I was referring to a 12ga, which does make a very nice and BIG fireball with some ammo. But yes, its probably not as big a prob as it is made out to be - if life depends on it who care about the other stuff...