Please Say This Isn't True

[Michael Brown]

I heard a rumor today that a competitor at the 2004 IDPA Nationals received an FTDR penalty for "taking a sight picture" when he cleared his pistol after the stage was over. I was told it was on the bathtub stage.

Can someone confirm or dis-confirm this story. If its true, the sport is already halfway down the proverbial slippery slope. I really enjoy IDPA so I am hoping its not true.

Michael Brown

[Mark Perez]

Not true .

The only FTDR , iirc , was for a "round dumping" call.

I think it was covered on one of the other forums.

Mark

[Steve Moneypenny]

Mark, this is about the only IDPA forum i frequent, i'm curious about this call, can u point me to any better info?

Thanks

[Mark Perez]

Steve ,

It was touched on HERE.

The yahoo IDPA list had a long discussion on Rd Dumping - it may have been addressed there too.

Mark

[rmills]

Sight pictures of any kind (before or after a stage) are illegal in IDPA. I've only seen procedurals given for them up to now. What were the specifics as to why the SO gave a FTDR? If the circumstances warrant it, then a FTDR was the right call.

[Tokarev]

Why is a sight picture after a stage against the rules? Most police agencies are teaching "checkpoints" back to the holster after engaging a threat/target. I think checkpoints are a good idea and IDPA should allow a shooter to get in the habit of breaking tunnel vision.

[Mark Perez]

Sight pictures of any kind (before or after a stage) are illegal in IDPA. I've only seen procedurals given for them up to now. What were the specifics as to why the SO gave a FTDR? If the circumstances warrant it, then a FTDR was the right call.

Where did you get "or after a stage" from?

The book says :

There will be NO sight pictures allowed on any IDPA range. Doing so will result in a 3-second procedural penalty.

and from

Vol 8 Issue 3 : Ken's Corner

"Please note that in IDPA, there are NO sight pictures allowed. If you take one, you will get a three second procedural. Checking your shooting position by 'air gunning' is considered taking a sight picture by IDPA. I have had people tell me that since they don't actually have a gun in their hands that they are not violating the rule....whether a real gun or imaginary gun, you get a three second procedural. You can 'air gun' if you want, but be prepared for 3 seconds added to your score."

I'm sure both apply to anything before the LAMR command.

We have a couple of guys that reload and 'cover down' on the targets after their last shot is fired , are you saying they should get a PE for this practice?

Mark

[slowsure]

I have seen more than a few shooters "scan" the targets after I assume they were done with the gun. I didnt believe that this was a rule infraction. I actually thought that it was very much in line with the overall scope of what IDPA is about. Making sure.

[Matthew_Mink]

So, when unloading and showing clear, when they say hammer down, I don't need to aim at the berm using the sights? That would be an FTDR? So I should hammer down 'from the hip'?

[dirtypool40]

If the circumstances warrant it, then a FTDR was the right call.

ROFLMAO

this is exactly what's wrong with the whole mentality, SUBJECTIVITY.

Picture Cartman (Yes, from Southpark) dressed in a photo vest, thigh rig, bandeleros, a glock polo and mirrored sunglasses, with a green book wrapped around a baseball bat. He's making applesauce of some competitor who had an idea or opinion. There, now you have a pretty good amalgom (sp?) of the IDPA SO mentality.

"Respect my authority!!!"

"That's a bad shooter"

"Sweeeeeet".

rant mode back in standby.

[vincent]

Iron Mike (Mike Webb) was the CSO for the bay that included the bath tub stage. He runs Texas Tactical IDPA and can be reached at http://www.texastactical.net He is a straight up guy. I'd contact him directly if you have any questions about that stage.

----------

I was the competitor who got the FTDR at the 2004 IDPA Nationals for "round dumping". If you didn't see the topic on the IDPA Yahoo Group feel free to PM me for my side of the story.

There were no other FTDR's at the match, only procedurals. Including people being penalized for the exact same action that got me an FTDR.

----------

The lesson learned is that there are no true rules in IDPA. Everything is open to the interpretation of the SO and the MD. You can only do what the MD and SO's say you can do and anything else can be penalized as they see fit including giving different penalties for the same "infraction". The interpretations of the rules can change from stage to stage at a given match. Consistency is not required at any level. This applies to shooting as well as equipment. The IDPA "rulebook" is actually only a loosely held set of guidelines for SO's and MD's to start with.

This takes the fun out of the sport for me. My buddies still shoot mainly in IDPA and they have a good time. More power to them, but ouside of a few local club matches I'll be saving my shooting budget for other sports.

[dirtypool40]

I feel your pain bud. Come on over to an objective competition. I did and I am better shooter for it.

[BigDave]

What I find ironic is that there is no subjectivity when it comes to the shooting in IDPA (COF's set in such a way that there is only one way to shoot it). However, the IDPA rules and their application are totally subjective, which is inherently contradictory IMO.

[rhino]

The irony is ... exceptional.

[rmills]

Sight pictures of any kind (before or after a stage) are illegal in IDPA. I've only seen procedurals given for them up to now. What were the specifics as to why the SO gave a FTDR? If the circumstances warrant it, then a FTDR was the right call.

Where did you get "or after a stage" from?

The book says :

There will be NO sight pictures allowed on any IDPA range. Doing so will result in a 3-second procedural penalty.

and from

Vol 8 Issue 3 : Ken's Corner

"Please note that in IDPA, there are NO sight pictures allowed. If you take one, you will get a three second procedural. Checking your shooting position by 'air gunning' is considered taking a sight picture by IDPA. I have had people tell me that since they don't actually have a gun in their hands that they are not violating the rule....whether a real gun or imaginary gun, you get a three second procedural. You can 'air gun' if you want, but be prepared for 3 seconds added to your score."

I'm sure both apply to anything before the LAMR command.

We have a couple of guys that reload and 'cover down' on the targets after their last shot is fired , are you saying they should get a PE for this practice?

Mark

Mark: I was just making the point that NO sight pictures are allowed at any time.

[rmills]

I have seen more than a few shooters "scan" the targets after I assume they were done with the gun. I didnt believe that this was a rule infraction. I actually thought that it was very much in line with the overall scope of what IDPA is about. Making sure.

Scanning the targets with the pistol after the last shot is fired is 100% OK as one wants to make sure that all threats are neutralized. However, after the unload command is given the shooter may not take another sight picture with the pistol. As always, airgunning sight pictures are never allowed.

[rmills]

This takes the fun out of the sport for me. My buddies still shoot mainly in IDPA and they have a good time. More power to them, but ouside of a few local club matches I'll be saving my shooting budget for other sports.

I feel your pain bud. Come on over to an objective competition. I did and I am better shooter for it.

What I find ironic is that there is no subjectivity when it comes to the shooting in IDPA (COF's set in such a way that there is only one way to shoot it). However, the IDPA rules and their application are totally subjective, which is inherently contradictory IMO.

The comparison of IDPA to another shooting sport seems to be appearing here again. IDPA is not IPSC or USPSA. Different set of rules.

[geezer-lock]

I’m always curious about how folks can infer or imply “air gunning” from the very direct and simple statement about sight pictures published in the LGB. Even Ken’s statement in the IDPA journal is incorrect. In what must be one of the few examples of clarity in the rule book, the definition is laid out thusly:

“NO "sight pictures" will be allowed. A sight picture is defined as drawing a

loaded or unloaded firearm and aiming it down range before the start signal to

begin a course of fire; a procedural penalty will be incurred for each infraction.”

This is not a case of “it’s not in the rule book” type of circular argument. Anything else is horse hockey. This is a case of misguided interpretation of the FTDR and good sportsmanship rules applied by match directors or RO’s. I have even heard a clearly ridiculous statement at a match that you could get a procedural for pointing at the targets from the gallery!

When I attend a match out of my usual area of operations I always ask in a loud and clear voice, “How do you guys define a sight picture?”

I like IDPA and shoot at a lot of matches but there are lots of “local rules” out there. Caveat emptor.

geezer

[vincent]

dirtypool40,

I shot IDPA only for about 5 years and then USPSA and IDPA together for about a year and a half. I went to USPSA to try something new and to look for different shooting challenges. I found that I liked the sport of USPSA more than IDPA. The maturity of the organization and clear rule structure fits my personality more and the level of shooting challenge is higher as well. I was planning on shooting more USPSA in 2005, but the 2004 IDPA Nationals sealed the deal. I no longer have any major IDPA matches on my shooting calender.

Now I'm spending my time learning the new game of USPSA. Lot's to learn!

-Vincent

[Steve Moneypenny]

some IDPA matches .. like the WV state are ran like a proper match should be... others...well, aren't had good experience at the Indiana State.

[smokshwn]

rmills,

With all due respect you say IDPA is a different set of rules, yet you quote Ken's Corner for the rules. Ken's Corner is not the LGB and therein lies the problem of objectivity. Too many times an FTDR or procedural is given based on what someone has read in a magazine/interpreted/been told/dreampt up/etc. As an active IDPA shooter (I actually shoot both IDPA and USPSA) I see this as a problem our sport needs to address. If IDPA wants to be different than USPSA so be it, but the subjective interpretation/application of the rules is going to continue to haunt us until we fix our own house. Also IMHO if the prevailing attitude of "IDPA is different, if you don't like it tough &*^%. " continues, we will be sending a negative message to those who would normally try and possibly continue to support the organization.

Take care, Craig

[Joe D]

I do wish the Ken's Corner dribble would go away. Why not replace it with a question and answer section. Better yet use the space to post rule clarifications or changes. I get tired of carrying around my "Dru Email" concerning the Seattle Slug.

The round dumping rule is one of the most ridiculous rules in IDPA. It ranks up there with the "All reloads must be done from cover" rule. Give me a break, if I run out of bullets in the open I want to get another mag in ASAP.

BTW the Mississippi State match was a great one. I had a total melt down, but my wife won High Lady. I did notice one of the SOs, who BTW is a really nice guy, kept making an improper cover call on his stage. There were a couple of targets that had to be shot from cover. Most SSP and ESP shooters had a reload between the two. I, and others, got cover warnings when we did not get completely behind the wall to do our reload. If I am behind cover enough to shoot then am I not behind cover enough to reload?

[rmills]

rmills,

With all due respect you say IDPA is a different set of rules, yet you quote Ken's Corner for the rules. Ken's Corner is not the LGB and therein lies the problem of objectivity. Too many times an FTDR or procedural is given based on what someone has read in a magazine/interpreted/been told/dreampt up/etc. As an active IDPA shooter (I actually shoot both IDPA and USPSA) I see this as a problem our sport needs to address. If IDPA wants to be different than USPSA so be it, but the subjective interpretation/application of the rules is going to continue to haunt us until we fix our own house. Also IMHO if the prevailing attitude of "IDPA is different, if you don't like it tough &*^%. " continues, we will be sending a negative message to those who would normally try and possibly continue to support the organization.

Take care, Craig

IDPA Headquarters has ruled that "airgunning" is not allowed. If one requests the new rule in writing, just e-mail Dru at headquarters. Just because the organization has not printed a new rule book recently does not mean that the rule doesn't apply. If one truly needs to "airgun" to prepare for a stage, they are missing one of the basic principles of our sport, being ready to shoot on demand.

[tightloop]

The LGB and the people who enforce it are great till you are on the receiving end, as Vincent found out..

The idea of that sport is great, but the subjectivity will kill the sport...goes to what I have been saying for over two yrs now..if it is in the book then follow the rules, if it isn't in the book, then too bad for HQ and they should allow it till the revision comes out.. but we see that isn't going to happen..

Back to MY RULES, CAUSE IT IS MY BALL....damn...too bad

[smokshwn]

Rmills,

In my experience trying to get a rules decision from headquarters is akin to pulling teeth out of a hippo. I understand that after almost 4 years there are going to be some out of date rules, but almost any organization I have been a part of has been able to figure out how to rewrite a 50 page book every 1-2 years. For hell sakes IDPA could at least update the webpage. IMHO it is a poor excuse for an organization to impart on its members the responsibility of chasing down the lates rules. Not to mention how do I give out a procedural or enforce a rule with respect to a relatively new shooter who is following the LGB but has not become savvy enough to carry around a notebook of updates.

Craig