IPSC Production Glock17

[Phil Dunlop]

Vince, I was very interested in the reponse to the new Tanfoglio Production gun when the dealer brought it to our match.

Everyone seemed shocked an dismayed that it was legal. Comparing it to a Glock or Sig doesn't seem fair.

Coming from Standard Division I'm a gamesman from way back, and I even felt uncomfortable. I want one for an Aussie Standard gun, locked and cocked and a Kiwi Production pistol, DA, and I don't think I would be handicapped in Standard.

It was sold that day, went for $2500 a G17 will cost you $1000 and a CZ 75 about the same.

P.D.

[Vince Pinto]

Phil,

I think if Glock offered a G17 with a gold plated slide and a genuine diamond installed in the front sight for $2,500, some sucker would buy it. I know this, because I have a guy here in Hong Kong who shoots a gold plated gun (in Standard Division).

Leaving that aside, what do you think is the problem, and what is your solution?

[shred]

While I wasn't asked, I personally believe part of the problem is that you can't take a plain OFM gun and add parts to make it functionally identical to the "custom shop production-special-big-$" model and remain legal in many cases. That rubs many people the wrong way as in "sure I didn't buy the high-dollar version, but I can upgrade it later if I want to once I get my trailer paid off.."

[Phil Dunlop]

Vince, I was hoping you wouldn't ask that because I already knew I don't have an answer.

In a nutshell the issue revolves around the difference between a Production Gun and a gun designed for Production Division.

How you take those concepts and mould a set of rules around them i don't know.

Talking to the guys here already shooting Production, and those contemplating a purchase, its the simplicity that appeals.

No bits of tungsten, heavy dustcovers, recoil masters etc to compete with or be distracted by. Make your choice, pay your money and play.

[olp73]

Could this situation be happened?

Some day, the production division may end up to be a competition between gun’s company.  They may create a production gun that actually not proper to use in real life, but aim only to win the game. The company who making the best racing production gun will be the winner. And the shooters will be forced to buy the very expensive gun in order to stand up front and be able to compete with other shooters. And also for the normal citizens, who want to have a gun to protect their life, end up buying guns that specially made for racing.

Probably, Glock is the only company, who wants to make only production guns for real life only (at least, for now).

Mai

This was actually my original argument. Maybe my english isn’t good enough to make the point appear clearly, but I think this is about to happen.

The Sphinx used buy several national team shooters here cost over 3000$ And this is not shooters who use this class as some kind of exercise/ promotion division. These are dedicated production shooters who has been in the IPSC circus for 15- 20 years. And only compete outside the country in this class.

I am not sure what the Dart means with a “silly price”, but 3000$ seems pretty silly to me.

olp

[kdj]

Talking to the guys here already shooting Production, and those contemplating a purchase, its the simplicity that appeals.

Actually, what appeals to me about Production is that I can buy ammo and I have to do enough mag changes that the time spent practicing that skill pays off

I don't object to $3K "Production" guns unless I'm not allowed to buy them

Kevin

[Flexmoney]

Could this situation be happened?

Not only could it happen...it has happened.

We went through an "equipment race" once already...and lost a lot of shooters. And, likely helped to form/drive IDPA.

Now, in those days...we went to red-dots, comps, double-stack guns, etc. We got some things (innovations) that were good in general, and we got some stuff that was mostly just useful in competition.

With the various divisions we know have...there is a place for the "race guns", and there is a place for the "factory guns".

As things are...I see the the equipment race gearing up in IPSC Production.

(Vince, I know you didn't ask me either, but I gave a list of suggestions on page 1 of this thread.)

[Nik Habicht]

If I were the one writing the rules for IPSC Production:

- Gun would have to be in mass Production. 2000+ units produced

- They would have to be available to the general public (not something for just the "team shooter")

- They would have to be on the market...to the general public...for a period of time. (I am thinking two years, but one year may be enough)

- You would be allowed to change to whatever standard sights you'd like.

- You would be allowed to clean-up, and lighten, your trigger pull.

- Triggers would be non-single action. (allowing the Springfield XD)

- The magwell area could be "flared" internally, but not externally. It would have to have the same external profile as the grip.

- Minor power factor

- Capacity restriction.

- Not sure about the holsters and mag pouches. The race-like "non-race" holsters are getting to be expensive, but are still carry-worthy in most cases...and still half the price of a true "race" holster.

I'm in full agreement with Flex's list. I'll expand a bit on the capacity restriction: With the current ten round limit, you can choose a production gun in any caliber and shoot production. Already loading .40 for your limited/standard gun? Make some more for the production gun. Already own a Glock 21 or a Witness chambered in .45ACP? Bring it out to the range. Want to shoot cheap factory ammo out of a nine? That's possible. Without a capacity restriction, most of those options go away --- and I'm not terribly swayed by the few people who choose to shoot lower capacity .45s in IPSC production division, rather than higher capacity nines. The capacity restriction levels the playing field and opens it up to more choices in more calibers. About the only guns left at a serious disadvantage at the seven or eight round single-stack .45s like the Sig220 or the S&W4506.....

Mag pouches shouldn't really be an issue --- sure race pouches are adjustable, but you need to string 4-6 of them behind your hip, so that limits adjustments and their benefits severely......

[mcoliver]

Let's see the Glock 40 Full-race series:

1. 5" barrel

2. Fiber optic or plain metal front sight options.

3. Melted on slide bomar rear

4. Flared mag chute opening

5. Crisp 5# trigger

6. Slide cut ala the G34/35 series

7. Replaceable backstrap ala P99

8. Chrome or regular black phosphate slide finish

9. Camo option for the frame (for ErickW)

10. Redesigned mag follower & spring for 19 rounds of 9X19

11. Plain or lightened striker options

12. Plastic or steel non-captured guide rod

13. Comes with a $2K price tag.

14. Doesn't get approved for IPSC (say, due to option #9 ).

What do you think are the chances that there's an uproar from the shooting community due only to option #14?

[Flexmoney]

mcoliver,

Don't forget to offer it with the 31 rounds mag as standard.

[mai]

Well, if we looking back to many of previous post about rule and division, we will see that the most confusion, arguable, and disagreeable are about guns for production division. Its must be something missing from the rule, so more and more question about what guns, what parts, what equipment and etc. My opinion is we have two ways to reduce the upcoming confusions, questions and so on. (It’s just an opinion, OK?)

One is put more sub rule such as weight of gun, may be specific to model, say, no more than 700 gr. for G17 and 1050 for sphinx (we want to put a lot more work to officer, right?). Or may be no tungsten guide rod, no fiber optic sight, no more than 15 rounds, also some like Flex said and many more. And we may keep the Production Division as it was meant to be.

The another one is reduced the sub rule. Let’s keep only as few as possible, say, single action for first shot, 5-lbs. trigger, 5 inches barrel, and lets the shooter modify the rest. And let’s change the name to Racing Production Division.

Mai

[Vince Pinto]

Damn. I go for a pee and all hell's broken loose. Again.

Anyway, all constructive comments are welcome, and you certainly don't need a personal invitation from me to make one, but a contribution to my Cookie Retirement Fund is always appreciated.

Maybe I've lost the plot here, but I don't understand how people can grumble about manufacturers building guns to meet the criteria we dictated. Nobody is forcing anybody to pay $3,000 for a PD gun, and if you really think that the price of the gun you use makes any difference in Production Division, I'd be delighted to introduce you to David Sevigny (and Jerry Miculek if you like wheel guns). It's all about talent, not hardware.

However here's the challenge: whoever can identify just one instance where, all else being equal, the price of the gun alone made one iota of difference in IPSC Production Division, I'll pay your airfare to WSXIV and I'll throw in an evening at the T*tty Twister Bar in Guayaquil.

(Employees of Darth Enterprises may not participate. Offer void where illegal. Yada, yada, blah, blah)

[Skywalker]

Personally, I would welcome the evolution of Production Division (whose - I acknowledge - primary intent was to give its proper place to DA guns) into something similar to Standard Division, with the only requirements of:

- First Shot to be fired DA.

- DA minimum trigger pull weight (to ensure the DA trigger pull won't mutate into a SA trigger pull...).

- No optics or compensators allowed.

- Minor PF scoring only (because Open and Standard are already slightly unbalanced towards speed, and I like the idea of a division slightly unbalanced towards Accuracy).

- Box Rule for dimensions.

That's all (apart from other minor requirements similar to Standard Division, e.g holster and eqipment position).

No approved guns list.

No other restrictions to mods, because I want to be able to choose the gun design I consider the most effective (e.g. for reliability) for me, and then I want to be able to fully suit it to my hands and shooting preferences (e.g. grips, sights, overall weight etc.).

This would also prove to be more enforceable, and would eventually lead to relieving the ROs from the burden of being a "firearms encyclopedia".

But, that's my preference, and I guess it is highly unlikely this will ever happen.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

I am a firm believer in the "Indian, not the arrow" line of thinking.

But, perception is reality.

Nike created an industry on the best athlete in the world. It wasn't the shoes, but every ball player felt the need to get some.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we are doomed to repeat them.

And, by the way...if I wanted to be competitive in IPSC Production...I would be considering giving up the Glock. The equipment does seem like it will prove to be an actual advantage.

[Singlestack]

- Capacity restriction.

I like everything on the "Flex" list except the capacity issue.

I vote for allowing whatever comes from the factory with the gun. I really hope 10 round mags become hard to find in Georgia. I have had enough of government induced capacity restrictions.

[Vince Pinto]

But, perception is reality. Nike created an industry on the best athlete in the world.  It wasn't the shoes, but every ball player felt the need to get some.

If that were true for IPSC, then everyone would be shooting a Tanfoglio in Open Division with Armscor ammo

Of course I get the thrust of your argument, but you and I are both intelligent enough to know the difference between advertising hype and reality, and I truly believe that most IPSC competitors are equally as intelligent.

I don't know about you, but when I first joined IPSC, I purchased every damn widget I could get my hands on, because I was suckered into believing that adding "go faster" stripes to my gun, and getting the latest holster advertised in "Shooting For Dummies" would edge me towards being World Champion. However after about a year of actually shooting and watching the top dogs in action, I realised my gear really didn't amount to a hill of beans.

The truth hurts, but it's still the truth

[dajarrel]

However after about a year of actually shooting and watching the top dogs in action, I realised my gear really didn't amount to a hill of beans.

The truth hurts, but it's still the truth 

I agree

dj

[hopalong]

DJ,

Here you are on the Plastic Tupperware forum, I thought you were going to put the silly buottom feeders away !!!!

Hopalong

By the way, what you going to shoot at the Alabama match in March?

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

The reality is...the guy walking into check out the first match. The possible new customer...the one that has read all the gun magzines saying that you need "special equipment" to even be competitive...that customer doesn't need to see specialized $1000+ Production guns hanging off people's hips.

I am assuming that we are looking to bring new shooters into the sport all the time. (Cause, none of you guys are geting younger...and I need help setting up and tearing down. )

[Vince Pinto]

..... none of you guys are geting younger ......

Heyyyyy ..... I resemble that remark!

I hear you, but I think the vast majority of intending competitors would ask around before investing megabucks (just look at the questions we get here), and I doubt they would go OTT with their first gun purchase (I blew my money on the purchase of dozens of relatively cheap, but invariably useless widgets).

However regardless of our conflicting views, the proof is in the pudding, so what's actually happening in your sandbox? In my (Australasian) sandbox, every man and his dog is buying a garden-variety Glock, CZ, Beretta or H&K.

Sure, I realise that Phil mentioned a guy in NZ spending $2,500 on a "special" Tanfoglio, but Kiwis are a funny bunch - just ask any Australian.

[Phil Dunlop]

"Sure, I realise that Phil mentioned a guy in NZ spending $2,500 on a "special" Tanfoglio, but Kiwis are a funny bunch - just ask any Australian"

now I am flattered Vince!

[njrich]

undefinedAnd, by the way...if I wanted to be competitive in IPSC Production...I would be considering giving up the Glock. The equipment does seem like it will prove to be an actual advantage. 

flex,

wow! i know you love glocks.what would you consider if that was the case?

not to drift the thread.you can pm me if you want but i would really like to know what you would use.

[kdj]

I think the vast majority of intending competitors would ask around before investing megabucks (just look at the questions we get here), and I doubt they would go OTT with their first gun purchase

I bought the only CA Open gun I could find as my first gun purchase. Does that count as OTT?

I'd probably have bought a "special" Tanfoglio for Production but you can't get them here! THere's nothing wrong with expensive guns!! ... but they don't make up for other people being able to shoot better

Kevin

[mcoliver]

I like Sky's box rule for Prod, before the manufacturers get the crazy idea of pushing the mag capacity or something.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

To answer your question (in a round-a-bout way...sorry)...

In my sandbox, I see Open shooters (but not most GM's) jumping onto the "shorty" gun bang-wagon.

I see perfectly good Limited shooters hitting a skills wall, and thinking there is a $2000+ answer in equipment to be found.

I do see shooters...all the time...chasing the scores with their wallets.

Now...it's not so bad in those divisions...they are more cutting edge. (And, if you dig back far enough in the forums you will here me beating the drum of innovation...and evironments that support it.)

I am all for innovation in Production guns as well. But, not in the form of "competition special" guns. (call me a purist. )