Steve RA Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Those guys are moving around like they have 10 pounds of cr^p in their pants! I know I would....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Well, they are operators...don't you know. BUTT, they need to step up their load-out game. Not enough molle. Need to take lessons from these guys: (posted here a while ago, but still makes me a chuckle) OK - did they ever hit the targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) How terrible. Sweeping each other, pointing the gun up range, shooting while people down range, 180's. No thanks for me. Sorry i watched. Yea because in real life the bad guys on come at you from one direction! If they are training for real life you need to get used to moving up and down range with a gun. Just keep the muzzle in a safe direction. In real life there is no up or down range. In this sport we do some pretty bad habits in the name of safety. Like running up range with your pistol over your shoulder or pointing backwards away from the threat. Let these guys train. Are they hurting anyone here? This type of talk I see here in this thread is no better than i see from the tactical teddies saying competition will get you killed in other forums. Live and let live. People enjoy using firearms for different purposes. If they want to play dress up and train like military operators. Let them its not hurting anyone else. Edited August 24, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Alaskapopo....it's ok to shoot in the direction of a human you do not wish to hit? Even in M.O.U.T training it's not done. Not in any training I've ever had. Slice a room or area..yes. But fields of fire overlap...not at each other. They should stick to air soft with the neighborhood kids. Gear up and defend the back yard from little Sally....but leave firearms to people with rational thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Alaskapopo....it's ok to shoot in the direction of a human you do not wish to hit? Even in M.O.U.T training it's not done. Not in any training I've ever had. Slice a room or area..yes. But fields of fire overlap...not at each other. They should stick to air soft with the neighborhood kids. Gear up and defend the back yard from little Sally....but leave firearms to people with rational thought. In real life you have to shoot firearms in the same general direction as good guys sometimes. Think hostage situations, or active shooters. You fight like you train. You need to be as safe as possible but if you never train for real life situations you will fail when that time comes. A friend who is a combat vet said they trained in the army to give each other 15 degrees and they trained like that. These guys may seem like douces but at some point you have to train past the square range mentality at least if that is your goal. Should it be allowed in competition no, but under controlled training conditions after you have built up to that level through dry practice and airsoft and then finally real guns yes. Think about the NYPD shooting at the Empire state building. I bet no innocent people would have been hit had the officers had better training. They were forced to fire on a suspect who was firing on them with innocent people all around. That is life stuff happens and if you don't train for it you will fail. How many of us have fought to get our sport (USPSA, Three gun IDPA etc) into shooting clubs. Remember the initial response from other shooters like the trap guys and bullseye shooters who were horrified that we ran with loaded firearms. Now many of us in this thread are acting the same way towards these guys. Pat Edited August 24, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Name one instance, just one, in the real world, where this is taught. Where shooting at, directly at, a team member is taught....much less tolerated. I know people in the service that are pretty high speed door kickers...after the laughter stopped they all said they hoped haji is training the same way. Even offered to send the tape to over there..... Yes we fight as we train. If you train to point a firearm at a friendly...guess what? You have one less friend. Train to shoot at threat identifiers... Not the guy you had lunch with. Nothing on this planet will convince me they should not even have slingshots. Oh...and in real life muscle memory and communication between shooters gets you home to mommy....not mall ninja antics. Edited August 24, 2013 by whitedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redial Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 WD, no one is even remotely suggesting anyone shoot AT a team member - we're discussing shooting nearer to friendlies than you're comfortable. FWIW, Louis Awerbuck has taught similar things for years, utilizing students as downrange "friendlies" on a hot range, to teach you to maneuver between them to close with your antagonist(s). Ken Hackathorn, Robbie Haught and John Markwell demonstrated some of their procedures even more unsettlingly (no, I won't say how). All such acts are terribly inappropriate outside very specific settings, which the sport of USPSA certainly is. Apples and oranges. I don't know who the gents in the vid are or what they're demonstrating so I'll keep further comments to myself. Cheers Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Name one instance, just one, in the real world, where this is taught. Where shooting at, directly at, a team member is taught....much less tolerated. I know people in the service that are pretty high speed door kickers...after the laughter stopped they all said they hoped haji is training the same way. Even offered to send the tape to over there..... Yes we fight as we train. If you train to point a firearm at a friendly...guess what? You have one less friend. Train to shoot at threat identifiers... Not the guy you had lunch with. Nothing on this planet will convince me they should not even have slingshots. Oh...and in real life muscle memory and communication between shooters gets you home to mommy....not mall ninja antics. If they were shooting directly at their team members they would have been hit with bullets. I am not defending the guys in the video rather I am fighting the square range mentality that was posted up in reaction the them. We teach fire and manuver drills where one shooter covers and the other shooter runs up range in a zig zag pattern. By your definition that would be pointing at another team member because he is up range of your muzzle? I will leave it at this. Pat Edited August 24, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Name one instance, just one, in the real world, where this is taught. Where shooting at, directly at, a team member is taught....much less tolerated. I know people in the service that are pretty high speed door kickers...after the laughter stopped they all said they hoped haji is training the same way. Even offered to send the tape to over there..... Yes we fight as we train. If you train to point a firearm at a friendly...guess what? You have one less friend. Train to shoot at threat identifiers... Not the guy you had lunch with. Nothing on this planet will convince me they should not even have slingshots. Oh...and in real life muscle memory and communication between shooters gets you home to mommy....not mall ninja antics. If they were shooting directly at their team members they would have been hit with bullets. I am not defending the guys in the video rather I am fighting the square range mentality that was posted up in reaction the them. We teach fire and manuver drills where one shooter covers and the other shooter runs up range in a zig zag pattern. By your definition that would be pointing at another team member because he is up range of your muzzle? I will leave it at this. Pat maybe this guy never did buddy rushes. never fired from a wedge or echelon formations, never did traveling overwatch. never had close air support,arty or tow missle overhhead /360 degree live fire houses.all these you can find in training. not everything is a square range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 My problem is they are making it up as they go along... that is how you get dead. You cant learn fire and maneuver from video games or movies... no matter how many times you watch blackhawk down or how many moral patches you buy on the interwebs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 I thought the video was stupid too. But, Alaskapopo has a good point. It's their butts on the line. Also, if you have ever tracked from one shoot target to another, with a "no-shoot" (read:hostage) in between, you have just swept a hostage. What comes up at out weeekly shoots on "carry gun night" is often how to track a BG moving behind hostages without sweeping the hostages. Can't be done in real-life. If you have ever shot a BG behind (and maybe partially covered by) a hostage, you have just swept a hostage. I wouldn't train with those guys and I'm not sure what they think they are training for, but, it's their butts... IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 But this forum is pretty much dedicated to "Square ranges" so we tend to view other scenarios as odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 This forum also has a stated Intent:Intent This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged. And please, no hunting or "killing animals" (of any kind) threads. Emphasis added for clarity.I think this one has gone on long enough.-Larry DrakeThe Moderating Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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