Need help working up a 158gr 38 Special Minor load

[mcb]

So I am getting setup to load 38 Special for my 5 inch barrel 627. I have some LRN 158 gr Speer swaged bullets. For powder I have Clays, Universal, and W231 in my cabinet and these all seem like good 38 Special powders.

When I look at Hodgdon online reloading data it seems like any one of those powders will make Minor within the published range of powder charges. That said when I went diving into this forum its seem nearly everyone has to use a bit above the publish 38 Special maximums for the above powders to make Minor. Not a safety issue for most since they are shooting them in 357 Mag guns but it's making it hard for me to decide which powder and what would be a good starting charge. Any data and advice you can share would be appreciated. Thanks!

[kamikaze1a]

To make minor it should not require over max load. With 158gr bullets, you need just over 790fps and that is towards the lower end of the load range for the powders you listed. I would not hesitate to use those powders but would probably choose Clays or Universal...

According to hodgdon.com, starting load;

Clays 2.8 812fps

Universal 3.5gr 756fps

W231 3.1gr 782fps

Edited July 31, 2013 by kamikaze1a

[mcb]

I agree kamikaze1a, but many of the threads here seems to indicate more than the publish charges are required to make minor velocities. Of the loads I found in the forum very few reported charge in the range of the publish data that made minor. It seemed everyone had to good heavier charger to actually get to the published velocities, hence my reason for creating this thread.

[Guest]

I recently used a 6" 686 for some steel challenge and worked up a load with WW231 and some ratty old 158 gr lead SWCs. I worked up until I got some good accuracy and stopped. At 25yd was getting 1.5 - 2 inch groups with these bullets, not fantastic, but good enough for steel.

WW231 @ 4.3gr (loaded to where the grove is for a roll crimp) = 827 fps/130pf out of that gun.

I looked at the WW data and the charge weights vs stated velocity seems pretty optimistic.

A good example as to why a chrono should be used even when developing minor loads. It would really blow to ring the sub-minor bell at a USPSA match!

[kamikaze1a]

You are right. You will usually not get the published velocity but unless you are firing with an brand X, light weight, alloy frame, it should easily take a load greater than the starting loads or even max. The load data must take into consideration that you may be loading for a "Saturday Night Special" and with the courts full of liability cases, the manufacturers are often overly conservative.

The S&W is a quality revolver and should handle the loads required for minor pf. Have your smith look over your rev if you are concerned.

[mcb]

Attempt 1 was an educational failure. I had two powders with 2 charges each and all failed to make Minor. Here are the numbers for those interested or also working up loads.

Gun: S&W 627, 5 inch barrel.

Load 1

Bullet: 158 gr RNL Speer Plinker

Case: Remington/Federal

Primer: Federal small pistol

OAL: 1.475, moderate crimp

Powder: Universal Clays

Charge 1: 4.1gr

Average Velocity: 640.5 (8-shots)

Power Factor: 101.2

Charge 1: 4.4gr

Average Velocity: 702.1 (8-shots)

Power Factor: 110.9

Load 2

Bullet: 158 gr RNL Speer Plinker

Case: Remington/Federal

Primer: Federal small pistol

OAL: 1.475, moderate crimp

Powder: Clays

Charge 1: 3.1gr

Average Velocity: 685.3 (8-shots)

Power Factor: 108.3

Charge 1: 3.4gr

Average Velocity: 743.9 (8-shots)

Power Factor: 117.5

So from that data I figure I am going to need about 5.0gr of Universal Clays to make a 130PF and about 3.8gr of Clays to make 130 PF. Both of those load will be well outside of 38 Special data but still well within 357 Magnum charges all-be-it at a shorter OAL.

On a side not the FLGS had some Remington 38 Short Colt in stock. I picked up two boxes just to shoot and then play with trying to make a minor 38 Short Colt load. The Factory 38 Short Colt was really soft. I think it made a 73 PF when I Chrono'ed it this morning. It was fun to plink with though.

[thermobollocks]

Interesting. My wild guess is that the swaged bullets might be tougher to shove down the bore than cast bullets, or the profile is different from what Hodgdon used. I've used 231 before in .38 special, along with Titegroup, but never any of the Clays family.

One thing that's always made me nervous is wild extreme spreads based on whether the gun's tilted down or up before firing. I tried using AA#2, a dense ball powder, and I got some really nasty deviations. Do you run into that at all with Clays or Universal Clays?

[BBeavers]

Out of my 4" S&W 67, 4.1gr HP38/231 gives me 128pf with a 158 cast bullet. I get the same results with a swaged bullet.

[mcb]

Interesting. My wild guess is that the swaged bullets might be tougher to shove down the bore than cast bullets, or the profile is different from what Hodgdon used. I've used 231 before in .38 special, along with Titegroup, but never any of the Clays family.

One thing that's always made me nervous is wild extreme spreads based on whether the gun's tilted down or up before firing. I tried using AA#2, a dense ball powder, and I got some really nasty deviations. Do you run into that at all with Clays or Universal Clays?

I thought swagged bullet are typically softer than cast bullets and thus should be about the same or easier to push down the barrel.

The were not the most consistent loads I have loaded but decent. IIRC they all had a SD of roughly 20fps.

Out of my 4" S&W 67, 4.1gr HP38/231 gives me 128pf with a 158 cast bullet. I get the same results with a swaged bullet.

Thanks I have a bit of 231 left too, I will give that load a try too. The interesting thing is Hodgdon's web data says that 3.7gr should give you a 131.7 PF but your experience indicates that is not nearly enough powder.

All of Hodgdon's 38 Special data seem very optimistic. It would be nice if Hodgdon actually reported the barrel type and length used to measure their loads. Maybe with a longer non-vented barrel this info is accurate. Then at least we could make and educated estimate of the velocity we might see in out own guns.

[thermobollocks]

I honestly have no idea about the metallurgy of swaged bullets compared to cast, only that it is different. If you're able to get your hands on a bullet cast from the same mold that your manual used (Lyman will tell you what they used, not sure Hodgdon will) you can caliper the bearing surface to see if it matches.

[mcb]

Alright guys another quick update: I will summarized all my data to date in one post so you don't have to scroll around too much.

Handgun: S&W 627 with a five inch barrel

Chronograph: Shooting Chrony Alpha Master

Load 1

Bullet: 158gr RN swagged (Sierra Plinker, appears to have dry moly coating, no wax lube)

Case: Mixed Remington and Federal

Primer: Federal Small No. 100

OAL: 1.480 inch

Crimp 0.367 inch

Powder: Universal Clays

Charge 1: 4.1 gr, 640.5 fps, 101.2 PF

Charge 2: 4.4 gr, 702.1 fps, 110.9 PF

Charge 3: 5.0 gr, 877.4 fps, 138.6 PF

Load 2 (same as 1 except for powder)

Bullet: 158gr RN swagged (Sierra Plinker, appears to have dry moly coating, no wax lube)

Case: Mixed Remington and Federal

Primer: Federal Small No. 100

OAL: 1.480 inch

Crimp 0.367 inch

Powder: Clays

Charge 1: 3.1 gr, 685.3 fps, 108.3 PF

Charge 2: 3.4 gr, 743.9 fps, 117.5 PF

Charge 3: 3.9 gr, 824.7 fps, 130.3 PF <- we have a winner!

Load 3

Bullet: 158gr RN Berry's Plated

Case: Remington

Primer: Federal Small No. 100

OAL: 1.491 inch

Crimp 0.373 inch

Powder: Winchester 231

Charge 1: 4.7 gr, 783.7 fps, 123.8 PF <- so close but fail!

Hope this might help some other guys work up loads. I normally love Hodgdons online database but their 38 Special lead-bullet data is very optimistic to say the least.

Edited September 9, 2013 by mcb

[anachronism]

It's possible that the longer 357 chambers are adding a bit of a freebore effect on loads with shorter cases. That is, the bullet has an additional distance to travel before it engages the throat, and some of the pressure is used to fill this space, which takes a little bit of velocity away. It would be interesting to see some of these loads chronographed in both 38 Spl guns and 357 guns to see if this is actually the case.

[mcb]

It's possible that the longer 357 chambers are adding a bit of a freebore effect on loads with shorter cases. That is, the bullet has an additional distance to travel before it engages the throat, and some of the pressure is used to fill this space, which takes a little bit of velocity away. It would be interesting to see some of these loads chronographed in both 38 Spl guns and 357 guns to see if this is actually the case.

I could see losing 50fps maybe even 100fps due to blow by as the bullet jumps from the case mouth down the longer 357 chamber but if you look at Hodgdon's data compared to my results I am getting roughly 250fps difference between what Hodgdon would indicated and what I get in reality.

[rdinga]

4.0 grains of 231 and the 158 rnl has worked for me. Using Winchester SPM primers because I have a lot of them in the closet.

[Tom E]

Alright guys another quick update:

OAL: 1.480 inch

Seat your bullets deeper. Seat them so all of the full diameter bearing surface of the bullet is in the case. You'll get more velocity with less powder. Less effective case volume, better burn, more efficient..

[njl]

My first .45acp reloads were done with Universal, and I found there too that their data was wildly optimistic with respect to charge/velocity. I also found that Universal didn't burn well at low pressure.

[Cd662]

"Clays 2.8 812fps"

I am pretty sure this won't make minor.

[thermobollocks]

"Clays 2.8 812fps"

I am pretty sure this won't make minor.

So is the OP.

Load 2

Bullet: 158 gr RNL Speer Plinker

Case: Remington/Federal

Primer: Federal small pistol

OAL: 1.475, moderate crimp

Powder: Clays

Charge 1: 3.1gr

Average Velocity: 685.3 (8-shots)

Power Factor: 108.3

Charge 1: 3.4gr

Average Velocity: 743.9 (8-shots)

Power Factor: 117.5

[Steve RA]

This might give you a clue as to why some loading information seems wildly optimistic.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=777321

[thermobollocks]

This might give you a clue as to why some loading information seems wildly optimistic.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=777321

That's kind of what I've guessed, and one of the reasons I'm tremendously happy with the Lyman books. They tell you what they use, and for handgun stuff their universal receivers are almost always 4 or 5 inches. No, you're not going to get quite the same thing between a 5" SAAMI minimum universal receiver and a well shot 627, but the results have always been closer than anyone else's data.

Edit: And most of the time they tell you exactly what pressures they came up with.

Edited October 11, 2013 by thermobollocks

[No.343]

I just chrono'd 38 long colt loads with 3.0 gr of Clays and a Billy Bullets 160 gr bullet. It chrono'd at 136 pf out of a 5" 627. Sorry I don't have the OAL.

[captain037]

Our standard ppc load for years was 3.2 grn bullseye and a 158 swc and 2.7 grn for a 148 WC. May not make minor but nice.