You be the RO

[kevin c]

1. I might give the shooter a reshoot for an untaped target that gave him pause because it is a change in the COF that shouldn't be there and it affected his shooting, but because this is fraught with abuse potential, I am not going to stop the shooter unless I can see the extra holes and know it wasn't engaged by the shooter before. So basically its the same as GuildSF4, with a RS if I find the extra holes while scoring (regardless of whether the shooter finished the COF) or scored as shot otherwise.

Hm. That isn't actually according to the rules. You don't stop a shooter for unpasted targets. If, after they have shot, you can't determine the score, then reshoot. If you can determine the score (for example, 9mm vs .40) then it is scored as shot. You don't stop a shooter just because they notice an unpasted target.

Why not? If the shooter doesn't see the holes in the target, I will not stop him and just check the target for "scoreability" afterwards. But if he sees it and stops/hesitates, I think it is reasonable to say that 1) the condition of the course is different for this shooter than it should be, and that 2) it affected his run, that 3) that is not equitable or fair and that 4) it is a form of REF that should have been caught before the run and that is correctable by giving a RS.

A bit more of a concern to me is the abuse potential. If somebody sees the holes, says nothing and finishes the course but has tanked it, and then demands a reshoot saying his run was affected by seeing the untaped target, that might get to be a problem. Maybe that's why it isn't done. Another reason might be that it is being lumped into that category of things that can change the stage from shooter to shooter, like wind holding up poppers, rain, and the angle of the sun on the range - acts of God that are the shooter's tough luck. They aren't considered worthy of a RS, even though they clearly affected the shooter.

[ima45dv8]

It's a sad reality that one of the rules not published in our rulebook is, "If you encounter an untaped target -- Keep going!"

Reshoots are not granted because someone stopped at an untaped target. It may have impeded their flow through the CoF, but it is not grounds for a reshoot.

Sad, yes. But a reality just the same.

[motosapiens]

It's a sad reality that one of the rules not published in our rulebook is, "If you encounter an untaped target -- Keep going!"

Reshoots are not granted because someone stopped at an untaped target. It may have impeded their flow through the CoF, but it is not grounds for a reshoot.

Sad, yes. But a reality just the same.

It really ought to be specifically called out in the rulebook. Yes, it's something that all experienced competitors should know, but it's such a simple thing and would help prevent crankiness and hurt feelings.

Hopefully everyone will encounter it at a local match and therefore learn. And also learn to call their shots and stop wasting time looking at targets.

[Thomas H]

1. I might give the shooter a reshoot for an untaped target that gave him pause because it is a change in the COF that shouldn't be there and it affected his shooting, but because this is fraught with abuse potential, I am not going to stop the shooter unless I can see the extra holes and know it wasn't engaged by the shooter before. So basically its the same as GuildSF4, with a RS if I find the extra holes while scoring (regardless of whether the shooter finished the COF) or scored as shot otherwise.

Hm. That isn't actually according to the rules. You don't stop a shooter for unpasted targets. If, after they have shot, you can't determine the score, then reshoot. If you can determine the score (for example, 9mm vs .40) then it is scored as shot. You don't stop a shooter just because they notice an unpasted target.

Why not? If the shooter doesn't see the holes in the target, I will not stop him and just check the target for "scoreability" afterwards.

That isn't what you said above. You said: "I might give the shooter a reshoot for an untaped target that gave him pause because it is a change in the COF that shouldn't be there and it affected his shooting, but because this is fraught with abuse potential, I am not going to stop the shooter unless I can see the extra holes and know it wasn't engaged by the shooter before. "

So if you see the holes and the shooter hasn't engaged the target yet, you are going to stop the shooter and give a reshoot? Or if the shooter pauses you'll give him a reshoot?

But if he sees it and stops/hesitates, I think it is reasonable to say that 1) the condition of the course is different for this shooter than it should be, and that 2) it affected his run, that 3) that is not equitable or fair and that 4) it is a form of REF that should have been caught before the run and that is correctable by giving a RS.

And yet, you don't get to give a reshoot just because you think the person paused. Reshoots for non-pasted targets are only given (by rule) in the case when the hits cannot be determined. Unpasted targets are not (by rule) automatically REF. And an RO can't make them so just because they feel like it.

A bit more of a concern to me is the abuse potential. If somebody sees the holes, says nothing and finishes the course but has tanked it, and then demands a reshoot saying his run was affected by seeing the untaped target, that might get to be a problem.

Good thing that isn't an issue because a shooter can't demand an reshoot because it isn't a REF.

Maybe that's why it isn't done. Another reason might be that it is being lumped into that category of things that can change the stage from shooter to shooter, like wind holding up poppers, rain, and the angle of the sun on the range - acts of God that are the shooter's tough luck. They aren't considered worthy of a RS, even though they clearly affected the shooter.

So----why would you give a reshoot again, when the rules clearly say that a reshoot is only to be given when the hits cannot be determined?

[gng4life]

#1 - Normally, just stay quiet until I say IYAF... and then they get the hint after getting pissed at me. If it's a new shooter or Jr. shooter just starting out, I have helped them by telling them that they must finish the CoF or take all the Mikes from that point on and that's only at local matches. Yeah, I know it's not technically correct but I will try to help and educate the new shooters at local matches to keep them in the sport. I would never do that at a LII or above match.

#2 - Just shooting the mag out is not always grounds for a dangerous situation. If I load some of my mags too full, I've had them shoot out the bottom and come apart. It would depend on the sound, smoke, functioning of the gun, etc. However, as it sounds from the description of the situation, I would have probably stopped him also to make sure everything is safe before continuing on.

[kevin c]

Thomas H:

If it seems a bit contradictory, its because it seems to me that it is, and I am of two minds.

There isn't anything explicit in the rules to say that an untaped target is or isn't REF, but you can't deny that it can screw with a person's head, and that it certainly does with new shooters. The ones who have read the rules know that an untaped target can lead to a reshoot. Why? because because it can adversely affect scoring. They also know that usually an unrestored COF leads to a RS. So they stop, expecting to be stopped. An experienced shooter knows that it is customary to ignore the holes (and really shouldn't be looking at them anyway), keep shooting and ask questions later, but that is not explicit in the rules. The beginner hesitates or stops, and thus gets screwed. I am just looking for a way around that unfortunate scenario that I have seen play out more than a few times.

It doesn't seem easy to do, so far as I can see, unless it becomes an automatic reshoot. Too subjective trying to judge if seeing the holes disturbed the shooter unduly, and maybe too easy to game otherwise. Alternatively, and I guess this is what happens now, it's just passed off as an act of God that messes with the shooter on that particular run and that's just his bad luck. Too bad - I'd like it to be fixable.

[d_striker]

1. Just for future reference, if you're staring at 2 alphas on an untaped target in the middle of a COF and have a brain freeze, for the love of God, don't put 2 more alphas on it and then stumble on through the stage.... throw a charlie or delta in the mix, thus guaranteeing your reshoot.

(I learned this the hard way at SIngle Stack Nationals and it is a lesson I will never forget)

Not necessarily. If the RO can determine which hits are yours (usually by a difference in caliber) then no reshoot.

At a State match about 3 years ago I saw a shooter argue with the RO on the clock for about 30 seconds because a target was unpasted. The problem was, he had shot that target from a different port earlier in the course of fire.

I've seen RO's just give the shooter the 2 highest value hits on a paper target with 4 holes of the same caliber.

1.) Is this legit?

2.) Can the shooter request a reshoot assuming all holes are of the same caliber and in different scoring zones rather than accept the 2 highest value hits?

Edited June 21, 2013 by d_striker

[gng4life]

I've seen RO's just give the shooter the 2 highest value hits on a paper target with 4 holes of the same caliber.

1.) Is this legit?

2.) Can the shooter request a reshoot assuming all holes are of the same caliber and in different scoring zones rather than accept the 2 highest value hits?

1) No

2) Shooter can't request, the RO has to be able to distinguish the hits or there is a required reshoot.

[d_striker]

I've seen RO's just give the shooter the 2 highest value hits on a paper target with 4 holes of the same caliber.

1.) Is this legit?

2.) Can the shooter request a reshoot assuming all holes are of the same caliber and in different scoring zones rather than accept the 2 highest value hits?

1) No

2) Shooter can't request, the RO has to be able to distinguish the hits or there is a required reshoot.

Hypothetically, would an RO claiming to have seen the hits constitute them being able to distinguish the hits?

[gng4life]

If it is obvious and the RO can determine an accurate score and what the last shooter shot on that particular target, then that should satisfy the rule on an unrestored target. As an RO, you must be careful with this and absolutely sure about your call.

[remoandiris]

The rule does NOT say HOW the RO can determine the hits. The RO could use the previous shooter's score sheet to see their hits and score the current shooter accordingly. If the RO saw the current shooter's hits, yes that can be used.

As has already been mentioned, the RO MUST BE SURE. Some ROs at Level 1 matches ignore this and often just give the 2 highest scoring hits.

[uzi]

It's a sad reality that one of the rules not published in our rulebook is, "If you encounter an untaped target -- Keep going!"

Reshoots are not granted because someone stopped at an untaped target. It may have impeded their flow through the CoF, but it is not grounds for a reshoot.

Sad, yes. But a reality just the same.

hello ipsc have this one long time number 9.1.4.2

Edited June 21, 2013 by uzi

[Nik Habicht]

1. Just for future reference, if you're staring at 2 alphas on an untaped target in the middle of a COF and have a brain freeze, for the love of God, don't put 2 more alphas on it and then stumble on through the stage.... throw a charlie or delta in the mix, thus guaranteeing your reshoot.

(I learned this the hard way at SIngle Stack Nationals and it is a lesson I will never forget)

Not necessarily. If the RO can determine which hits are yours (usually by a difference in caliber) then no reshoot.

At a State match about 3 years ago I saw a shooter argue with the RO on the clock for about 30 seconds because a target was unpasted. The problem was, he had shot that target from a different port earlier in the course of fire.

I've seen RO's just give the shooter the 2 highest value hits on a paper target with 4 holes of the same caliber.

1.) Is this legit?

2.) Can the shooter request a reshoot assuming all holes are of the same caliber and in different scoring zones rather than accept the 2 highest value hits?

1. Absolutely not. Each competitor is entitled to the the score he/she shot -- and every competitor in the match is disadvantaged when match staff takes a "guess."

2. The shooter can request anything, anytime. Whether a request is even considered is another story. The best course of action would be to dispute the calling of the shots on the target -- and to have the target pulled for the RM....

[spanky]

Both occurred at a Level II match. What would you do?

1. Shooter shoots half of a field course, as he is about to engage a target stops shooting and says "there are holes in the target".

9.1.4 allows the RO to decide if he can differentiate hits of current shooter vs. previous, I understand that. But if a shooter stops because of untaped targets how should the RO respond? Do the rules allow the RO to say "keep shooting" or does he have to ULASC the shooter and then give appropriate penalties if he can score the targets?

2. Shooter draws gun and fires a few shots, upon firing a shot magazine shoots out the bottom of the gun with the basepad, spring, rounds etc. flying all around (ie it was forced out the gun not just released with the mag release). Competitor and RO seemed to examine the gun together for a second and then he finished the course of fire. My question is what would you as the RO say in this situation? (We later determined he had likely had an out of battery firing which blew out part of the bottom of the case which caused the mag to be blown out).

Both of these questions get at what range commands are allowed between LAMR and ULASC other than STOP.

1. "If you are finished, unload and show clear. If clear, hammer down, holster." Score as shot. He didn't engage the target so there is no scoring discrepancy and no possible reshoot. Had he engaged the target then maybe a reshoot if the RO can't determine which hits are his.

2. I wouldn't say a word. I wouldn't help the competitor examine the gun. I'd let him fix it. If he can't fix it within the allotted time he gets "If you are finished, unload and show clear. If clear, hammer down, holster." Obviously he still gets that at the end of the COF if he can finish it.

Edit. Amending 2 a bit. If something sounded "off" I'd stop the shooter. The original post sounded like it could be viewed as the magazine simply falling apart.

Edited June 21, 2013 by spanky