EngineerEli Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) Hey all, I searched the best I could but could not come up with an answer... Would 5.56 or .223 be the ideal store bough ammo for a 3 gun AR Mine is a 5.56 chambered Adams Arms piston upper. 1-7 twist I think. I know the 5.56 is sometimes loaded slightly longer, and is also a hotter load. I have Miculek comp so would the lighter charge of the .223 or the added gas pressure from the 5.56 going through the comp make for lesser recoil? Also, if the barrel is made for 5.56 does that mean it is going to be slightly more accurate for 5.56 ammo, compared to possibly shorter loaded .223 factory loads? Anything else I should be considering? The last time I have been to Cabelas they had Federal 5.56 (XM 193 stuff), and .223 PMC for the same (half way reasonable)price. Also, I load pistol calibers now and plan to start loading rifle after this whole ammo shortage is over, is one or the other brass better for reloading? Which should I be getting? Thanks! Eli Edited June 4, 2013 by EngineerEli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Oh also, should one be more accurate than the other for longer range shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 All my guns have 5.56 nato chambers and I shoot .223 brass cased PMC, AE, and Grace 55 gr FMJBT w/o any complaints about accuracy. xm193 is hotter that the .223 stuff, but as long as you are getting 1.5" at 100 and know your holds, rifle is good enough for 3-gunnin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 You just need to try a few different boxes and see how your rifle shoots it. I much prefer reloading. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 I guess what I am trying to figure out is, are AR's like open guns (pistols) how the added gas from the hotter XM 193 round coming through the comp will actually give me less muzzle rise? Or, do I just want to minimize recoil with the .223 ammo. Will the difference in loads make any difference in cycle time of the rifle that would help or hinder my splits? Also, is the added velocity from the XM 193 round enough to make a difference of flatter trajectory at longer range shots? The holds will be different between 5.56 and .223 right, different velocity requires different holds? Are most 1/4x scope reticles set up for .223 or 5.56. I am planning on getting a 1-4 scope soon. Thanks again, Eli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 It's my experience that the slight differences of gas volume through a good comp isn't enough to make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 (edited) As to effectiveness of the comps, IMHO its generally a wash but I sense a bit less recoil with 223 but may just be less blast / noise. As to BDC scope reticules, advertised ranges for hash marks are set for specific bullets at specific velocities - independent of if its 223 or 5.56. Note that unless you have the same barrel used to the measure the factory ammo, odds you'll get that exact velocity is pretty low. However they will work with any bullet / velocity combo. Just find the angular subtensions of the hash marks and run a ballistics program (Hornady has one on their web page) find the range equal to that drop from your selected zero range for the bullet used and your measured velocity - you'll need access to a chrono to see what the ammo really does. The good news is that with XM193 or hotter 223 ammo you can find a zero with an effective point blank range out to 250-275 yards. Example: your scope LOS is 2.5 in above bore axis (typical height for an A4 upper with monolithic base/ring combo) and the typical XM193 out of a 16' CAR will be around 3000-3100fps, maybe a bit more. With a ~50 yard zero you the bullet will be +/- 2.5" from LOS out to about 275 yards. More than good enough to ping a 8" steel plate. Edited June 5, 2013 by Rob Tompkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Also, if you get a Nikon sope they have a web tool (search Nikon SpotOn) where you can select your scope and the ammo or hand load performance you're using and it'll give you the range values for your hash marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Alright so the consensus seems to be that the difference between the two, other than maybe noise and concussion of the 5.56, is negligible. The only difference is if you are running the bullet faster as in the 5.56 Your fluctuation between different distance holds will be less because of the flatter trajectory. I like the idea of being able to zero the gun at 50 yds and more or less forget about it so maybe 5.56 or at least hotter loaded .223 is best for me. Can anyone comment on how much that +/- 2.5" for the 5.56 would increase if using standard velocity .223? (for all considerations we are talking about 55gr bullets) Can you define LOS? Is it line of sight? From the context it is the line going through the center of the tube of the scope. Can any one speak to which type of brass is better for reloading and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Federal brass is one I avoid for reloading. Looser primer pockets leading to popped primers seems to be more frequent with Federal brass after a few firings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Alright so the consensus seems to be that the difference between the two, other than maybe noise and concussion of the 5.56, is negligible. The only difference is if you are running the bullet faster as in the 5.56 Your fluctuation between different distance holds will be less because of the flatter trajectory. I like the idea of being able to zero the gun at 50 yds and more or less forget about it so maybe 5.56 or at least hotter loaded .223 is best for me. Can anyone comment on how much that +/- 2.5" for the 5.56 would increase if using standard velocity .223? (for all considerations we are talking about 55gr bullets) Can you define LOS? Is it line of sight? From the context it is the line going through the center of the tube of the scope. Can any one speak to which type of brass is better for reloading and why? Yes, LOS - line of sight and it is the LOS of the scope. Hornady ballistics calculatior: http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator You can use the calauclator to see the effects of different bullets / velocities and zero distances. As a general rule you'll lose about 50 yards off your point blank range using 2900fps 55gr 223 ammo vs 3100+fps 55gr 5.56 ammo. Same +/- range. NATO / Military brass is thicker to hold up to the higher pressures and as a result the case volume is less so if you reload you need to download ~10% then work back up to what ever load you want that is safe and accurate. Also military brass (and some commercial bass) will have crimped in primers which can be (but may not be) a problem - it depends on the brass and the primers you use. it can be removed by swaging or trimming, not hard but and extra step in the process. many reloaders like the military brass, in way of comparison its cheaper, commonly available, consistant, and perhaps more durable if you reload to 5.56 pressures. If you are loading to a less than max load and don't need bench rest accuracy its not a problem in my experence to comingle 5.56 and 223 brass. If you want top accuracy you'll need to sort by head stamp, or least 223 vs 5.56. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I'll only ever be looking for 3gun type accuracy and power factors/velocities. I guess if the 5.56 ballistics are ideal than would that be what I would try to match reloading. I do realize i can just go over to the reloading forum and read to my hearts content on the topic so I don't need any crazy detail, unless you are in the mood to explain... I'm always receptive to learn something new Just did a little looking, is there no min PF for rifle in most multigun matches? I shoot tac optics or tac irons. Edited June 6, 2013 by EngineerEli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I'll only ever be looking for 3gun type accuracy and power factors/velocities. I guess if the 5.56 ballistics are ideal than would that be what I would try to match reloading. I do realize i can just go over to the reloading forum and read to my hearts content on the topic so I don't need any crazy detail, unless you are in the mood to explain... I'm always receptive to learn something new Just did a little looking, is there no min PF for rifle in most multigun matches? I shoot tac optics or tac irons. if you are new to reloading, get a book from any of the big companies. I like the Hornady book but Speeer's is good as well. If you want 5.56 velocites, IMHO, only use 5.56 brass. Find data for you selected bullet & powder and start 10% under and work you way looking for pressure signs (flat primers, defomed head stamps, blown primers). Min PF requirements are based on the rule set in use. Need to look at each match. However, if you are close to or below factory-like PF's long range shots will be harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 I have experience reloading pistol just not rifle yet. So most people load mid to upper range loads? Are faster or slower powders better for multigun loads. I have the Horady and Lyman reloading books ill have to take a look in them for ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I have experience reloading pistol just not rifle yet. So most people load mid to upper range loads? Are faster or slower powders better for multigun loads. I have the Horady and Lyman reloading books ill have to take a look in them for ideas. Most people I shoot with do not reload 223/5.56. Untill the last 6 months you could buy Wolf/Tula for not much more than it would cost to reload and with a lot less hassle. For the distances we shoot our local 3-gun it is an ok ammo to use - just have make sure it's not steel cored ammo. In broad terms if you can geet 1.5 MOA accuracy you good for most 3-gun I would not reload 223/5.56 exepct I want to shoot copper jacketd bullets (not bi-metal) and that ammo has become hard to find at any price (but more is beceoming avail at < $600/1k). At the volumes I shoot (1k-2k / year) saving 10 cents a round is not worth all the extra effort it takes to collect and prep rifle brass. At 40-50 cents (or more) savings per round it is worth the effort so I've been reloadiing for rifle even with projectiles and powder hard to find. Once XM193 is available for <$400/1k I probably won't reload for general blasting ammo. I personally I do not look for max velocity but look for max accuracy and live with what ever velocity that is. My current favorite loads are a 75gr HPBT with 22.5gr VV N135 (well below max of 23.3gr) and a 52gr HPBT Hornady or Nosler bullet with 20.5gr Reloader 7 (well below max of 21.3gr). There are many other good powders I would have rather used but these are what I could find at the time and they work well. In general faster powders work better for lighter bullets and slower for heavyer bullets. Some powders work well for a large range of bullet weights. Study your books and online sources to see the wide range of powders you can use. IMHO for any given bullet I would use a slower powder that needs a larger charge to get the same velocity. Why? You will have variations in charge weights and small variations will have less effect on larger charges. Also it's way harder to over charge a case if its full with a normal charge. It's all about what bullet / velocity / accuracy you want - not so much if its for 3-gun or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Thanks Rob, that's all very helpful information! Not so different than pistol reloading really. You are making me second guess though whether it is worth my time and money to start reloading for .223/5.56. We'll have to see what the future brings. -Eli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Thanks Rob, that's all very helpful information! Not so different than pistol reloading really. You are making me second guess though whether it is worth my time and money to start reloading for .223/5.56. We'll have to see what the future brings. -Eli On several different ammo search bots I've seen reports of steel cased (possibly bi-metal jacketed) ammo for $400/1k. Considering todays prices of ~15+ cents ea for projectiles, 4-5 cents for primers and 8-10+ cents for powder you're only saving 10 cents / rnd to reload - if you don-t have to buy brass at 10+ cents / case. At the cost of lots of time to reload, its hard to argue for reloading IF steel cased ammo meets your needs. About the best online price I've seen for brass cased, copper jacketed ammo as been $600/1k and that was out of stock. You can make a case for reloading if that is your baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinosaurMikeGolf Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Cheaper steel cased ammo is not always better. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venatic Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Alright so the consensus seems to be that the difference between the two, other than maybe noise and concussion of the 5.56, is negligible. The only difference is if you are running the bullet faster as in the 5.56 Your fluctuation between different distance holds will be less because of the flatter trajectory. I like the idea of being able to zero the gun at 50 yds and more or less forget about it so maybe 5.56 or at least hotter loaded .223 is best for me. Can anyone comment on how much that +/- 2.5" for the 5.56 would increase if using standard velocity .223? (for all considerations we are talking about 55gr bullets) Can you define LOS? Is it line of sight? From the context it is the line going through the center of the tube of the scope. Can any one speak to which type of brass is better for reloading and why? Yes, LOS - line of sight and it is the LOS of the scope. Hornady ballistics calculatior: http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator You can use the calauclator to see the effects of different bullets / velocities and zero distances. As a general rule you'll lose about 50 yards off your point blank range using 2900fps 55gr 223 ammo vs 3100+fps 55gr 5.56 ammo. Same +/- range. NATO / Military brass is thicker to hold up to the higher pressures and as a result the case volume is less so if you reload you need to download ~10% then work back up to what ever load you want that is safe and accurate. Also military brass (and some commercial bass) will have crimped in primers which can be (but may not be) a problem - it depends on the brass and the primers you use. it can be removed by swaging or trimming, not hard but and extra step in the process. many reloaders like the military brass, in way of comparison its cheaper, commonly available, consistant, and perhaps more durable if you reload to 5.56 pressures. If you are loading to a less than max load and don't need bench rest accuracy its not a problem in my experence to comingle 5.56 and 223 brass. If you want top accuracy you'll need to sort by head stamp, or least 223 vs 5.56. I have chronographed a few boxes different brands of factory .223 55 gr bullets and I can assure you they are loaded well above 2900fps if you are using a 20 inch barrel or longer. The Hornady 55gr and the Hornady Superformance stuff will be closer to 3200-3300 fps. The slowest factory stuff (55gr)I have chrono'ed was above 3000fps. Now I am talking about quality stuff not the cheapo Wolf stuff that I think is loaded with oatmeal soaked in diesel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerZSquid Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 What about .223 Wylde? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmccrock Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Anything else I should be considering? The last time I have been to Cabelas they had Federal 5.56 (XM 193 stuff), and .223 PMC for the same (half way reasonable)price. Thanks! Eli Whatever works best for you. PMC Bronze (there are different PMC brands) is my primary ammo. Down to my last case right now. I have some XM193 from years ago and it works fine, too. Both PMC Bronze and XM193 have had quality hiccups over the past several years, but generally are very good. Bronze runs about 3000 fps from my rifle, but it is a 20". Cheaper steel cased ammo is not always better. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ If I save $0.10/rd with steel case, after about 2500 rounds, I cover the cost of a new barrel. After that, its gravy. I know Silver Bear is accurate enough for most targets at my matches, although it has been unavailable even before the recent ruckus. YMMV As for Wylde, that is a chamber to be cut into a barrel, and is generally considered the best option for 3-gun. But if you already have a barrel it is not an option. 223 has been so cheap so long it had not been worth it to reload but I was going to start again just to keep my supply line going. Yep, that was the plan last fall. Right around New Years, was gonna buy a bunch of supplies and start reloading 223 and 9mm again. Oops. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Reloading bottleneck cases is a completely different animal than straight wall pistol cases. The key to reloading rifle is the case preparation work -IMHO. I learned the hard way. Simply: sort them, deprime and size, cut them, swage them, resize them again all by brass maker, then ream the primer flash hole. get rid of crappy brass as much as it might pain you, that crappy federal brass with the loose primer is a bummer if you are in a match and the primer gets under your trigger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoker Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 FWIW my rifle, a Wilson Combaf 16", 1-7, stainless 5.56 likes XM193 and will hold 1 MOA out to 250.. So, that's what I run most of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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