AR trigger manipulation

[rvb]

Hopefully not a duplicate thread; I did a search on the site via google and nothing really came up... might make for good conversation!?

I've been working on rifle skills in hopes of putting my toe in the 3-gun water this year. Even built a gun for it. (1-4x Vortex, 18" WOA barrel, rifle stock, trigger is SSA-E).

I suck at shooting groups with it. Even w/ decent ammo (eg Black Hills w/ 69gr SMK) I can't get under 1.5-2" @ 100 with any consistency. I had one group w/ 4 rounds under 0.7, but a flier opened it to ~1.5". I also had one 4" group @ 300. The good groups "felt" good... good shot calls, reticle steady thoughout the shot, followthrough, etc. the bad groups, well, I can tell I'm forcing each shot, not consistently working the trigger, etc.

I haven't bothered with a lot of load development yet because I know it's me, not the gun/ammo. I can see it when I dryfire... I cannot consistently break the shot w/o the reticle dancing.

How do you all work the trigger? Where do you place your finger? Is there a way considered the "right" way?

What are you doing with your thumb? are you using the grip to pull the gun to your shoulder, or letting the support hand do all that?

When standing and shooting fast, I'm using the tip of my finger. My hand is rotated so that I can -almost- touch the safety with the side of my thumb. I can pretty consistently break the shot w/o disturbing the sights. This same grip does not translate prone. I think things like elbow position, how square I am to the gun, etc change, and I feel bound up on the trigger (to the point of making my wrist hurt), so I find myself putting the trigger almost in the first joint. I get the best prone results this way, but my trigger finger ends up touching the gun on the left side.

Is it ok to have two largely different trigger techniques depending on position?

I'm getting frustrated. I don't even see wasting ammo at the range until I am happy with my dryfire. Some days I think I might as well use my glock for 100yd stuff.........

I know there are a million other variables (prone position, rests/bags, breathing, NPA, etc), but I thought this could be enlightening. At least I got to vent.

-rvb

Edited May 21, 2013 by rvb

[P.E. Kelley]

If I were you…with many questions that are hard to deal with via the written word, I'd take a class.

Redneck Tactical has helped several shooters move up through the ranks.

Some of them are now "names"

[MarkCO]

Ditto with one caveat...

Based on the groups you said you got, it is possible that you are having first and or last round in the mag fliers. All ARs do that to some degree, some worse than others and some at both ends. Try 3 targets, 3 rounds in the mag and shoot 5 times this way. If you have a group on the 2nd round that is good and the first and or third rounds have different POIs, then you may be able to compensate and or fix that issue.

[Bryan 45]

Like Pat said, a class would be the best dollars spent to help you with so many questions. But, the Jerry Miculek video carried by Brownells will give you a lot of things to work on while you're waiting for the class date to roll around.

[kurtm]

I like to aim high right and jerk the heck out of it

[abn-rgr]

I like to aim high right and jerk the heck out of it

We know you like to jerk it.....

[DyNo!]

Damn straight - pull the trigger as hard as you can! The bullets come out harder!

[kurtm]

Hey Abn-Rgr, it is mine and I can jerk it just as fast and as hard as I want!

[practical_man]

RVB

Good instruction is always time and money well spent.

To your question directly. With an AR-style rifle I get as much of my trigger finger inside the guard as I can depending on the shooting position. Prone hat means between first and 2d knuckle. Standing and kneeling, just the first joint.

I keep my thumb down, just like when shooting a revolver. I like the issue-type A2 pistol grip with two fingers above the bump.

I make my off hand do a the work for mounting and steering the gun.

That's how I do it. My training came from the Army. Not always at the cutting edge of coolness but it works to me.

Steady hold and front sight focus (or target-crosshairs for your scope) to a long way toward small groups. Breath control helps too.

Some formal training and a regular knowledgeable training partner will really help.

Hope this helps you in your journey.

[RJH]

Hopefully not a duplicate thread; I did a search on the site via google and nothing really came up... might make for good conversation!?

I've been working on rifle skills in hopes of putting my toe in the 3-gun water this year. Even built a gun for it. (1-4x Vortex, 18" WOA barrel, rifle stock, trigger is SSA-E).

I suck at shooting groups with it. Even w/ decent ammo (eg Black Hills w/ 69gr SMK) I can't get under 1.5-2" @ 100 with any consistency. I had one group w/ 4 rounds under 0.7, but a flier opened it to ~1.5". I also had one 4" group @ 300. The good groups "felt" good... good shot calls, reticle steady thoughout the shot, followthrough, etc. the bad groups, well, I can tell I'm forcing each shot, not consistently working the trigger, etc.

I haven't bothered with a lot of load development yet because I know it's me, not the gun/ammo. I can see it when I dryfire... I cannot consistently break the shot w/o the reticle dancing.

How do you all work the trigger? Where do you place your finger? Is there a way considered the "right" way?

What are you doing with your thumb? are you using the grip to pull the gun to your shoulder, or letting the support hand do all that?

When standing and shooting fast, I'm using the tip of my finger. My hand is rotated so that I can -almost- touch the safety with the side of my thumb. I can pretty consistently break the shot w/o disturbing the sights. This same grip does not translate prone. I think things like elbow position, how square I am to the gun, etc change, and I feel bound up on the trigger (to the point of making my wrist hurt), so I find myself putting the trigger almost in the first joint. I get the best prone results this way, but my trigger finger ends up touching the gun on the left side.

Is it ok to have two largely different trigger techniques depending on position?

I'm getting frustrated. I don't even see wasting ammo at the range until I am happy with my dryfire. Some days I think I might as well use my glock for 100yd stuff.........

I know there are a million other variables (prone position, rests/bags, breathing, NPA, etc), but I thought this could be enlightening. At least I got to vent.

-rvb

If I'm reading you right you are grouping the gun in field positions i.e. standing, kneeling, or prone. The only way I can tell what the rifle is doing is to take me out of the equation by shooting off bags and a solid table.

[JPeel]

I know I'm late to join this topic but if I'm reading this right, you can consistently hit near the center of a standard target at 100 to 300 yards. What's the problem with that? Unless you're shooting some match where the score is based on how tight your group is at distance all you need is two on paper, or one hit on steel.

I can routinely shoot 1/2 moa groups at 100 yrds with my rifle off a bipod but have never even given a second thought to shooting a tight group at a match. Unless you have a really evil MD setup the course, your long range targets will be 8 - 10" diameter or larger. All you need is one bullet to hit the steel, and I really don't care where it hits as long as it splats and goes "ding".

I am a relative newbie to competitive shooting and 3G and from what I've learned so far, I recommend you work more on being able to hit the long range targets when shooting from barricades, using trees / rocks for support, prone on a rock, etc... Also work on your transition from the shotgun / pistol to the rifle and getting in position / breaking that first shot as efficiently as possible.

And if you haven't shot a 3 g match yet, stop trying to get ready and just do it. Unless you train with an experienced shooter who can setup a realistic course, there is no practicing you can do that will get you ready. Just go shoot a match!

[larry weeks]

JPeel said it best. To learn to shoot groups, I found a local guy who shoots benchrest. He spent some time with me, on a bench, with sandbags and I now know what to do to shoot nice, tight groups. I hate having to do all the little things, but they work if you are trying to find out which ammo/load etc. is best - but that doesn't really translate to being twisted around a rock or facing downhill and aiming uphill, trying to shoot something 324 yards away that's in the shade, or the sun is in your eyes, or whatever.