Additional shots

[andersonj55126]

1 shot per target, mix of paper and steel

Mandatory reload

1 shot per target paper

Comstock

Should procedural penalty be given for a 2nd shot on paper before reload if after reload a 3rd shot was taken? So when finished there would be a total of 3 hit on one of the paper targets.

Should procedural penalties be given for 2nd shot on steel before reload?

[High Lord Gomer]

I would need to see the exact verbiage of the stage description. It would have had to explicitly lay out exactly how many shots to take before the mandatory reload in order for you to be penalized for taking extra in a comstock stage.

[George Jones]

You cannot specify number of shots or penalize for "extra" shot in Comstock.

I suspect this stage is not legal.

[High Lord Gomer]

I don't think it would be a penalty for extra shots but rather a procedural for each shot performed without the mandatory reload.

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur

one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the

reload was required until a reload is performed.

What if the stage description was?

Standing only in Box A engage targets T1-T3 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload, then engage targets T4-T6 with one round each. Scoring is comstock with best 1 round on each paper counted and steel must fall to be counted.

[JAFO]

1 shot per target, mix of paper and steel

Mandatory reload

1 shot per target paper

Comstock

Should procedural penalty be given for a 2nd shot on paper before reload if after reload a 3rd shot was taken? So when finished there would be a total of 3 hit on one of the paper targets.

Should procedural penalties be given for 2nd shot on steel before reload?

No procedural for the additional shot before the reload because it's Comstock. I can make up as many shots as I want. As long as there was one shot per paper taken after the mandatory reload, there are no procedurals for that, either.

How do you have a second shot on steel in your example?

Edited May 16, 2013 by JAFO

[andersonj55126]

first shot at steel was a miss.

[sperman]

You cannot specify number of shots or penalize for "extra" shot in Comstock.

I suspect this stage is not legal.

And the stage has to be scored Comstock because it contains steel targets.

9.2.3.2 Virginia Count must use paper targets exclusively, and must only be used for Standard Exercises, Classifiers, Speed Shoots, or Short Courses.

9.2.4.2 Fixed Time must use paper targets exclusively and they should, where possible, be disappearing targets.

[High Lord Gomer]

Standing only in Box A engage targets T1-T3 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload, then engage targets T4-T6 with one round each. Scoring is comstock with best 1 round on each paper counted and steel must fall to be counted.

Ok, so no procedurals for firing extra shots at T1-T3 before a mandatory reload. How about if they shot at T4-T6 before the mandatory reload? A procedural per?

[JAFO]

Yes, unless the shooter engages T4-T6 again after the reload.

[sperman]

Yes, unless the shooter engages T4-T6 again after the reload.

You can't shoot your way out of a procedural. If the shooter earned penalties for engaging the targets before a reload, it doesn't matter what he does after the reload, he still gets the procedurals.

10.1.4 Procedural penalties cannot be nullified by further competitor action. For example, a competitor who fires a shot at a target while faulting a line will still incur the applicable penalties even though he subsequently shoots at the same target while not faulting the line.

[Poppa Bear]

Standing only in Box A engage targets T1-T3 with one round each, perform a mandatory reload, then engage targets T4-T6 with one round each. Scoring is comstock with best 1 round on each paper counted and steel must fall to be counted.

Ok, so no procedurals for firing extra shots at T1-T3 before a mandatory reload. How about if they shot at T4-T6 before the mandatory reload? A procedural per?

Yes a procedural per on T-4 to T-6. Where is the steel?

[JAFO]

sperman,

I've seen people game SDs so many times, it's caused me to become very meticulous in my descriptions to keep the gamers in check. It says:

1) Standing only in Box A engage targets T1-T3 with one round each,

2) perform a mandatory reload, then engage targets T4-T6 with one round each

There is no "then" after the first instruction. It only stipulates a specific order in the second half of the SD. You must perform a mandatory reload, THEN engage targets T4-T6 with one round each. As long as the shooter engages T4-T6 with one round each after the reload, there are no procedurals per this SD.

If it said Engage T1-T3, THEN perform mandatory reload, THEN engage T4-T6, I'd agree with you.

Edited May 17, 2013 by JAFO

[High Lord Gomer]

JAFO...great explanation, thanks!

[kamikaze1a]

I think the OP's COF is engage paper and steel one shot each, reload then engage the same pager targets one shot each?

[sroe3]

We had a stage similar to this today. Makeups on steel were allowed on the first mag. Makeups on paper were only allowed after the mandatory reload otherwise it would, or could, be stacking. Only extra shots at paper before the reload were to be assessed procedurals.

[sperman]

We had a stage similar to this today. Makeups on steel were allowed on the first mag. Makeups on paper were only allowed after the mandatory reload otherwise it would, or could, be stacking. Only extra shots at paper before the reload were to be assessed procedurals.

You cannot specify number of shots or penalize for "extra" shot in Comstock.

I suspect this stage is not legal.

[mactiger]

You cannot specify number of shots or penalize for "extra" shot in Comstock.

I suspect this stage is not legal.

This. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not a legal stage.

Troy

[High Lord Gomer]

But it is correct to assess procedurals for shots fired without performing a mandatory reload, correct? CM99-12 has:

CM 99-12 Take Your Choice

Comstock, 12 rounds, 60 points

6 IPSC

Best 2/paper

Audible - Last shot

Failure to perform mandatory reload

will result in one procedural penalty

per shot fired.

Engage only T1-T3 from the left side of the barricade

and only T4-T6 from the right side of the barricade. Upon

the start signal, from Box A engage only the appropriate

targets from one side of the barricade then make a manda-

tory reload and from Box A engage only the appropriate

targets from the remaining side of the barricade.

[JAFO]

Sure. If the SD is written sequentially. CM 99-12 is written as a sequential string of instructions from the start signal. Procedurals would apply per 10.2.4:

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur

one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the

reload was required until a reload is performed.

[jbc98c]

According to 1.1.5.1

"Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or

when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify

mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a

long course)"

In essence, the RO would have to decide whether or not the shooter was making up for his first shot with the second, or if he was maliciously trying to cheat.

So, yes and no.

The real issue is if anyone argues the stage, they WILL win. But, at a level 1, that's not likely to happen.

I wouldn't implement a stage like this due to different RO's doing different things because this is such a grey area in our sport.