Dropped Mag Penalty Question

[Piney]

Here's the situation--

Last position of the stage

Shooting around a wall

Slide lock

Reached for belt-stored mag-- fumbled and dropped it

-- Could I have pulled another fresh mag, loaded and continued with the last 3-4 rounds of the stage from that same position , leaving the dropped mag on the ground ?

OR

--Would I have had to pick up the dropped mag before firing the remaining rounds and finishing the stage from that position ?

I'm used to picking up a dropped, loaded mag as a habit (not that it happens all that often LOL), so that's what I did and finished.

DIscussion afterward was because it was the last position and I wasn't leaving cover or moving anywhere-- no penalty for leaving it on the ground and finishing the stage.

Comments ?

[johnmac]

Just reading the IDPA rule book, you could easily argue "No Procedural". However, the Rules Addendum appears to address this exact situation:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave ammunition behind retrieves and properly stows the device before the last shot of the string is fired. The prior sentence does not include devices dislodged from a carrier which ALWAYS receives a PE.

RED= existing language

STRIKE OUT=deleted language

BLACK=new language

Edited March 30, 2013 by johnmac

[NicVerAZ]

Example of this as a tactic:

While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.

I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.

I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.

No, there is no gaming in IDPA.

[Craig N]

Example of this as a tactic:

While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.

I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.

I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.

No, there is no gaming in IDPA.

If there are rules, there is gaming..... Gun fighting doesn't have rules. No Kittens were harmed during the typing of this post.

[JunotFranco]

The rule about dislodging does not apply here because ge grabbed it and fell on the ground. You can grab the other and reload but YOU MUST pick it up and stow it away before your next shot, just holding it in your hand wont do. The rule about the dislodged mag applies if it falls while running or moving on its own. If it just falls without touching it, it is an automatic procedural even if you pick it up.

[Paul-the new guy]

You can grab the other and reload but YOU MUST pick it up and stow it away before your next shot, just holding it in your hand wont do.

Last shot, not next shot.

[freeidaho]

I believe this section of the rulebook covers this situation:

Appendix TWO - Approved IDPA Reloads

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty.

[Paul-the new guy]

I believe this section of the rulebook covers this situation:

Appendix TWO - Approved IDPA Reloads

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a procedural penalty.

The reload had not been done. He dropped the magazine. He has until the last shot is fired to pick it up.

[RickB]

_{If he'd pulled the mag out of the pouch while exposed to an unengaged threat, he could avoid the penalty for not reloading behind cover by dropping the mag on the ground, ducking behind cover, then using a different mag to complete the reload? I'm trying to apply the "reload had not been done" logic to another situation. Drawing the mag from the pouch is the start of the reload, and I don't know that you can unstart by drawing a different mag and reloading with that.}

[Paul-the new guy]

_{If he'd pulled the mag out of the pouch while exposed to an unengaged threat, he could avoid the penalty for not reloading behind cover by dropping the mag on the ground, ducking behind cover, then using a different mag to complete the reload? I'm trying to apply the "reload had not been done" logic to another situation. Drawing the mag from the pouch is the start of the reload, and I don't know that you can unstart by drawing a different mag and reloading with that.}

now you are just being silly... So he removed the mag from the gun, dropped the new mag and because he started the reload that means it is done? So he can shoot now with no mag in the gun... Seriously? Just trying to apply your logic...

your case would be covered by the all reloads must BEGIN and end behind cover if there is cover available...

[RickB]

_{If he'd pulled the mag out of the pouch while exposed to an unengaged threat, he could avoid the penalty for not reloading behind cover by dropping the mag on the ground, ducking behind cover, then using a different mag to complete the reload? I'm trying to apply the "reload had not been done" logic to another situation. Drawing the mag from the pouch is the start of the reload, and I don't know that you can unstart by drawing a different mag and reloading with that.}

now you are just being silly... So he removed the mag from the gun, dropped the new mag and because he started the reload that means it is done? So he can shoot now with no mag in the gun... Seriously? Just trying to apply your logic...

your case would be covered by the all reloads must BEGIN and end behind cover if there is cover available...

My point was, you can be penalized for not performing a proper reload, even if you don't reload. The idea that a mag on the ground means that no reload was "done" is an argument that I had never considered, as it relates to beginning a reload or completing a reload.

So, where's the definition of "done"?

[Paul-the new guy]

Well, the reload is complete when the mag is inserted into the gun and the gun is ready to fire... because in the classifier you can leave cover and run up to the next position while stowing you used mag and not incur a pe, right?

[RickB]

I'm not trying to be a smart-adz, I'm really trying to get an insight into the theory of "not done", in case it comes up. I can easily imagine someone pulling the stunt I described - dropping a mag on the ground, and claiming that they hadn't done a reload, so how can I penalize them for doing the wrong reload, or reloading in the wrong place? - I was just thinking out loud about it. I don't see room for it in the rules, but people used to perform IPSC-style speed reloads at the last shooting position on a stage, and argue that since they hadn't left the location, the partially-filled mag on the ground had not been "left behind". I'm just filing away the "not done" theory, in case it comes up.

[robertbank]

Rick I believe the answer lies on page 9 and page 41 of the rule book.. Page 9 tells us the reload starts with the ejection of a magazine or the drawing of a fresh magazine. Doing either begins the reload. According to page 9 the reload ends "when the weapon is fully charged and ready to fire (magazine fully locked into the weapon and the slide fully forward or cylinder closed)." So now we know what starts a reload and what ends a reload. What then does page 41 have to say? Well we know there are only three legal reloads. Page 41 says, "Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three second procedural penalty per infraction. In the same paragraph we get, "Failure to properly stow a partial magazine or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload will incur a procedural penalty.

[Paul-the new guy]

Robert the part you bolded applies to the partially spent mag not the fresh mag. If you drop the fresh mag you have until the last shot to pick it up. Spent mag first shot after the reload; fresh mag last shot.

[COF]

Example of this as a tactic:

While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.

I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.

I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.

No, there is no gaming in IDPA.

This should have earned you a PE since you performed a "speed reload" and did not stow the magazine before the next round was fired.

[Rob Tompkins]

Lots of apples and oranges getting mixed here but to the OP question, as mentioned else where if you don't retreive it before you leave the postion or fire the last shot you get a PE.

IMHO, stopping to retreive a mag and keep from getting a PE will cost you more thim than just sucking up the PE and moving on more oftern that not.

[Rob Tompkins]

Example of this as a tactic:

While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.

I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.

I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.

No, there is no gaming in IDPA.

This should have earned you a PE since you performed a "speed reload" and did not stow the magazine before the next round was fired.

Agree. At best it was a RWR where the first shot after the reload was fired prior to stowing the mag. Some might even argue the shooter left cover BEFORE the reload was complete and deserved another PE or even it was an intentional action to circumvent the rules and would warrent an FTDR.

[jagdawg]

Seems to apply to this thread... Need to settle a dispute on this rule please.

Shooter is in the process of reloading and while pulling out the front mag, the lip of the rear reload mag is caught and the rear reload mag falls to the ground. Shooter keep control of the front mag he grapsed. The shooter finishes the reload, picks up the other mag off the ground, then proceeds to finish the COF.

Even though the back mag was "dislodged" it was done so during the act of a reload. No..it was not "dropped" by the shooter.

PE or not?

[COF]

No PE

[Rob Tompkins]

Seems to apply to this thread... Need to settle a dispute on this rule please.

Shooter is in the process of reloading and while pulling out the front mag, the lip of the rear reload mag is caught and the rear reload mag falls to the ground. Shooter keep control of the front mag he grapsed. The shooter finishes the reload, picks up the other mag off the ground, then proceeds to finish the COF.

Even though the back mag was "dislodged" it was done so during the act of a reload. No..it was not "dropped" by the shooter.

PE or not?

Always a PE.

Look at Appendix E, Section 4:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time

a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full

moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course

of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a

reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave

ammunition behind retrieves and properly stows the device before

the last shot of the string is fired. The prior sentence does not

include devices dislodged from a carrier which ALWAYS receives a

PE.

Link to updated rules: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf

[Rob Tompkins]

Seems to apply to this thread... Need to settle a dispute on this rule please.

Shooter is in the process of reloading and while pulling out the front mag, the lip of the rear reload mag is caught and the rear reload mag falls to the ground. Shooter keep control of the front mag he grapsed. The shooter finishes the reload, picks up the other mag off the ground, then proceeds to finish the COF.

Even though the back mag was "dislodged" it was done so during the act of a reload. No..it was not "dropped" by the shooter.

PE or not?

Always a PE.

Look at Appendix E, Section 4:

1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time

a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full

moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course

of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a

reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor does not leave

ammunition behind retrieves and properly stows the device before

the last shot of the string is fired. The prior sentence does not

include devices dislodged from a carrier which ALWAYS receives a

PE.

Link to updated rules: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf

Just wanted to point out johnmac posted this rule in Post #2.

[NicVerAZ]

Example of this as a tactic:

While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.

I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.

I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.

No, there is no gaming in IDPA.

This should have earned you a PE since you performed a "speed reload" and did not stow the magazine before the next round was fired.

Agree. At best it was a RWR where the first shot after the reload was fired prior to stowing the mag. Some might even argue the shooter left cover BEFORE the reload was complete and deserved another PE or even it was an intentional action to circumvent the rules and would warrent an FTDR.

Well, I was not penalized.

In the spirit of a real life engagement (hoping never to be in one), it would make sense.

I do not believe I should have been penalized and was not.

[Rob Tompkins]

Example of this as a tactic:

While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.

I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.

I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.

No, there is no gaming in IDPA.

This should have earned you a PE since you performed a "speed reload" and did not stow the magazine before the next round was fired.

Agree. At best it was a RWR where the first shot after the reload was fired prior to stowing the mag. Some might even argue the shooter left cover BEFORE the reload was complete and deserved another PE or even it was an intentional action to circumvent the rules and would warrent an FTDR.

Well, I was not penalized.

In the spirit of a real life engagement (hoping never to be in one), it would make sense.

I do not believe I should have been penalized and was not.

I would refer you to page 44 of the current rule book: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf

Independent of Tac Reload or RWR the mag has to be stowed before the reload is complete. If you left cover with the mag in your hand it’s a PE, your reload was not complete as the mag was not stowed per the definition of RWR and Tac Reload on page 44.

IMHO, if you did not even attempt to catch the mag with your free hand I do not see how it can be realistically called a RWR / Tac Reload with a dropped mag. That was an intentional speed load, not an attempted but failed RWR. Is that a subjective opinion? Maybe. However, as the SO can't read you're mind and intent can't be proved it is an opinion only. As long as you stowed the mag before you left cover (or fired last shot if that was the last cover position) you are legal.

I retract my statement about not properly stowing the mag before the first shot after the reload. As shown previously and clearly stated in the rule book that is not a PE.

But as you describe your actions you did not complete the RWR / Tac Reload before you left cover, its a pretty clear PE as I read the rules. You might argue that Appendix 3, page 46 only requires you to have the mag seated and slide forward to leave cover, but that same section also says the reload must be complete to leave cover. That brings us back to page 44 and how RWR / Tac Reloads are defined.

If you can identify something else that shows it is legal please do.

[Paul-the new guy]

Every reload is complete when the slide is forward or the cylinder is closed with a round in the chamber. The mag does not have to be stowed before leaving a position of cover. Se page 45