Dropped Mag Penalty Question

[Rob Tompkins]

Every reload is complete when the slide is forward or the cylinder is closed with a round in the chamber. The mag does not have to be stowed before leaving a position of cover. Se page 45

True for a slide lock reload but makes no sense in the context of a RWR or Tac Reload. The chamber is never empty and the slide is always forward so by that definition you're always done with the reload and by extension you could do a RWR or Tac Relaod in the open because you reload is always complete - done before you start.

Plesae note that same page says the "reload must be complete" and RWR and Tac Reloads are not complete until the mag is stowed per page 44.

I'm sure the new rule book will address this more explicitly.

[NicVerAZ]

(snip)

I do not believe I should have been penalized and was not.

I would refer you to page 44 of the current rule book: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf

Independent of Tac Reload or RWR the mag has to be stowed before the reload is complete. If you left cover with the mag in your hand it’s a PE, your reload was not complete as the mag was not stowed per the definition of RWR and Tac Reload on page 44.

IMHO, if you did not even attempt to catch the mag with your free hand I do not see how it can be realistically called a RWR / Tac Reload with a dropped mag. That was an intentional speed load, not an attempted but failed RWR. Is that a subjective opinion? Maybe. However, as the SO can't read you're mind and intent can't be proved it is an opinion only. As long as you stowed the mag before you left cover (or fired last shot if that was the last cover position) you are legal.

I retract my statement about not properly stowing the mag before the first shot after the reload. As shown previously and clearly stated in the rule book that is not a PE.

But as you describe your actions you did not complete the RWR / Tac Reload before you left cover, its a pretty clear PE as I read the rules. You might argue that Appendix 3, page 46 only requires you to have the mag seated and slide forward to leave cover, but that same section also says the reload must be complete to leave cover. That brings us back to page 44 and how RWR / Tac Reloads are defined.

If you can identify something else that shows it is legal please do.

Which goes back to what GTO told me when I asked him why he was not shooting IDPA any more: "The interpretation of the rules vary according to whom is holding the clock" (in essence - not the actual quote).

And that is the issue with this game. Maybe the issue is not with the rules but with how they are written.

Since the "D" stands for "Defensive", what are we looking at here. The strict interpretation of a rule book with somewhat poorly written rules or the application of the "Defensive" concept above all?

In a real life engagement taking the time to stow away your partly used magazine before picking up a full one is a proven bad idea (don't make me paste links).

[Rob Tompkins]

(snip)

I do not believe I should have been penalized and was not.

I would refer you to page 44 of the current rule book: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf

Independent of Tac Reload or RWR the mag has to be stowed before the reload is complete. If you left cover with the mag in your hand it’s a PE, your reload was not complete as the mag was not stowed per the definition of RWR and Tac Reload on page 44.

IMHO, if you did not even attempt to catch the mag with your free hand I do not see how it can be realistically called a RWR / Tac Reload with a dropped mag. That was an intentional speed load, not an attempted but failed RWR. Is that a subjective opinion? Maybe. However, as the SO can't read you're mind and intent can't be proved it is an opinion only. As long as you stowed the mag before you left cover (or fired last shot if that was the last cover position) you are legal.

I retract my statement about not properly stowing the mag before the first shot after the reload. As shown previously and clearly stated in the rule book that is not a PE.

But as you describe your actions you did not complete the RWR / Tac Reload before you left cover, its a pretty clear PE as I read the rules. You might argue that Appendix 3, page 46 only requires you to have the mag seated and slide forward to leave cover, but that same section also says the reload must be complete to leave cover. That brings us back to page 44 and how RWR / Tac Reloads are defined.

If you can identify something else that shows it is legal please do.

Which goes back to what GTO told me when I asked him why he was not shooting IDPA any more: "The interpretation of the rules vary according to whom is holding the clock" (in essence - not the actual quote).

And that is the issue with this game. Maybe the issue is not with the rules but with how they are written.

Since the "D" stands for "Defensive", what are we looking at here. The strict interpretation of a rule book with somewhat poorly written rules or the application of the "Defensive" concept above all?

In a real life engagement taking the time to stow away your partly used magazine before picking up a full one is a proven bad idea (don't make me paste links).

No doubt the IDPA rule book leaves a lot to be desired in terms of clarity and consistancy. I can only presume that is why its taken 18 months for a rewrite. Many requestes for claification were defered for the new rule book.

Not to be rude and my applogies if it offends you but invoking the "Defensive" aspect of IDPA as rationale for circumventing a clearly written rule of a GAME is rather lame.

Your assessment that IDPA "tactics" are not good tactics to follow in real life is correct. But it's a GAME with RULES, not a practice / training ground for whatever you think are good real life tactics.

[Paul-the new guy]

Every reload is complete when the slide is forward or the cylinder is closed with a round in the chamber. The mag does not have to be stowed before leaving a position of cover. Se page 45

True for a slide lock reload but makes no sense in the context of a RWR or Tac Reload. The chamber is never empty and the slide is always forward so by that definition you're always done with the reload and by extension you could do a RWR or Tac Relaod in the open because you reload is always complete - done before you start.

Plesae note that same page says the "reload must be complete" and RWR and Tac Reloads are not complete until the mag is stowed per page 44.

I'm sure the new rule book will address this more explicitly.

I must have missed the part where it says that... The only thing I see that says when a reload is considered to be complete or done is this on page 45:

NOTE:

Reloads may only begin when the shooter is fully behind

cover and will be deemed completed when the fresh magazine is

seated and the slide is fully forward or the cylinder is closed.

We know this applies to all reloads because it is also the only place in the section about reloads that says you must be behind cover... If this does not apply to RWR and TAC reloads then neither does the "may only begin when the shooter is fully behind cover"

I think I have beat this to death quite enough...

[COF]

Leaving a point of cover with a magazine in your hand is NOT a PE, but if it is not stowed before you fire the next shot it will be a PE.

Stage 3, String 2 of the classifier is a prime example of why you perform a Tac Reload instead of a RWR - You can start moving as soon as the magazine is in the gun and stow the mag on the way to the barrel.

I hope in the interest of making rules clearer in the NRB we don't create additional breeding ground for range lawyers.

[madmike283]

Sorry to drag this one on, but I have a question/clarification then. At a local match a couple of weeks ago I brain-farted and did a RWR instead of Tac where more movement was required afterward. I got to the next shooting position and made 4 shots, then while arriving at the final position the partial mag fell out of my waistband. It seemed to happen simultaneously, maybe only slightly before, as I arrived and fired my first shot at the final array. I immediately retrieved the mag and fired the last 3 shots.

Did I commit a PE? Before I came across this thread I thought I was fine. But now, if I understand it correctly, should I have been issued a PE for dropping a magazine that wasn't in the course of a reload, period?

Edited May 5, 2013 by madmike283

[Paul-the new guy]

PE for that, no question.