Wrong time recorded

[sincityshooter]

Here's a situation that happened at Area 1. A shooter was contesting a "prop failure" issue when it was brought to his attention that his time was not correct on the score sheet. His score sheet said 27 something when in fact the time was 16 or 17 something. Since he was contesting something else he did not sign the score sheet yet. He had proof of the time on a video camera and showed the CRO. It was hard to hear the time, but it was definitely 16 or 17 something. Should this not be an automatic reshoot? Everyone seems to think so except for the Range Master who asked the CRO what the time was and wrote down what the CRO thought the time was. The question was never asked "Are you positive that the time is correct?". At this point the shooter definitely wants a reshoot, but what I witnessed was a stern Range Master who didn't want to budge. I couldn't believe what I witnessed. For the 6 years that I have been shooting it has been my understanding that if the no time or the wrong time is recorded the competitor gets a reshoot. Don't forget, he never signed the scoresheet and there is no way that a CRO remembers a time 45 minutes later after running 3 other shooters.

So, what do you think?

[Loves2Shoot]

reshoot, I've demanded reshoots when I know the timer didn't catch the last shots (time was too fast) A score is meaningless if not correct.

[diehli]

Reshoot.

[Skywalker]

I'm quoting the IPSC rulebook, because I don't know USPSA one, but:

9.10.2 If, in the opinion of an Arbitration Committee, the time credited to a competitor for a course of fire is deemed to be unrealistic, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire (see Rule 9.7.4).

I would have filed an arbitration, and brought all the evidence I could (witnesses, video, time comparison with other competitors of same and different class).

BUT, it's still up to the Arbitration Committee to uphold the RO/CRO/RM decision or to order a reshoot according to rule 9.10.2, it's not automatic.

[Vince Pinto]

A shooter was contesting a "prop failure" issue when it was brought to his attention that his time was not correct on the score sheet.  His score sheet said 27 something when in fact the time was 16 or 17 something.  Since he was contesting something else he did not sign the score sheet yet. <snip> Don't forget, he never signed the scoresheet and there is no way that a CRO remembers a time 45 minutes later after running 3 other shooters.

Something doesn't add up here. Before I make any comments, can you please explain how the competitor was "contesting a prop failure issue" (which I must presume took place immediately after he shot the COF), when you also say that this occurred 45 minutes later?

And who exactly brought the matter of the "incorrect time" to the attention of the competitor?

[Rob Boudrie]

I would have filed an arbitration, and brought all the evidence I could (witnesses, video, time comparison with other competitors of same and different class).

And the video evidence, by rule, could not be examined by the arbitration committtee.

A bit of digression:

Before concluding that needs to be changed, it's worth asking:

Do we want an environment where contenders feel the need to bring an evidence collection technician with them?

Do we wish to grant supoena rights to other evidence team's videos?

How would allegations of "I need a reshoot since the RO did not permit my support team to have the same access to filiming locations and the RO did yesterday, therefore, it is the match's fault that I do not have the necessary evidence to prove my case?" be handled.

The hosercam looks like a GREAT gadget, but I'm not sure we want to create a culture where people start to wear them as "insurance policies" (they would be great for getting evidence to prove if a discharge broke the 180; record RO instructions; etc.).

I personally do not buy the "because arb committees don't have the expertise to interpret two dimensional video evidence" argument (it many cases, it sure beats memories and opinions), but I am concerned with where allowing video evidence would take the sport.

[Skywalker]

Rob,

I know that video cannot be considered evidence, but it was my understanding that this was related to unsafe actions and other kind of debate involving the action/position of a competitor.

This came from the assumption that the camera is not in the same place as the RO, thus the field of view and the angle shot of it is different from the one the RO experiences.

But in this case it only serves to replay the time flow, and I guess it could give a good hint on discerning if the total time was something or 10 seconds more than that something.

I would ask for it to be included as evidence.

It might be denied.

[Vince Pinto]

I would ask for it to be included as evidence. It might be denied.

Most assuredly:

11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or other evidence pending the hearing. Audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence.

Note that this is a blanket ban, and there are no exceptions stated in the rule.

[GvU]

Apart from the 'prop' issue.

Crusial: 'When was the time written on the scoresheet?'

- If this was done immediately after the unloading procedure, (as no video evidence is admittable), this is the time (no reshoot).

- In case the time was written down 'from memory' after 45 minutes and 3 further runs, the RM should have given a reshoot 9.7.5.

As I understand it from the first post, someone read the time from the scoresheet (so it was written down immediately after unloading) and informed the competitor (this happened after 45 minutes).

No way I'd give a reshoot (for the time issue), especially as the competitor must have been presented the scoresheet for signing (after the RO signed the sheet). There was a contest to a procedural (?) and the competitor accepted the rest (forgot to look at the remaining score and time).

Sorry to say, but that is still the moment to check, not after 45 minutes bringing up (finding) another issue (from memory).

One thing though, I prefer to show the timer to the competitor (after reading the time) and I want the 'writer' to read back time and score.

John

[mactiger]

And the video evidence, by rule, could not be examined by the arbitration committtee.

Actually, under the current USPSA red book, video evidence is not specifically excluded.

Reshoot, if the time was not correct.

Troy

[TriggerT]

Reshoot. Seems to me that the "Spirit of the Game" can get lost in the interpretation of the rules sometimes.

[DogmaDog]

Reshoot,

Man, there's just no way: 27 seconds vs. 17??? That guy's score should just jump out as anomalously low, indicating something is wrong. If something is wrong, fix it.

The shooter hasn't yet signed the score sheet, accepting the score, and the 1 hour time limit for protests hasn't expired--I don't see why the shooter can't introduce a second protest after his first one about props.

DD

[sincityshooter]

I was the one to bring it up to the competitor after he said something like "well, it took me 27 seconds with a miss and I could get it down in the 14's or 15's with a reshoot." I told him there was no way that it was 27 and we looked at the tape (I recorded the run". Since video is not permitted how could the CRO use the video to come up with a time? The reason why this didn't come up until 45 minutes later was because the shooter told the CRO immediately after the run that a swinging target was not swinging properly. That's a whole different discussion. The shooter arbitrated the swinging target, but did not have room to write down the time mistake. He told the commitee, but was told that since it wasn't written down on the form there was nothing they could do.

I know that there is some bias towards top shooters... can you see this happening to Todd, Rob, Max, JJ, or Erik? NO WAY. For such a low key match I have no idea why the Range Master did not issue a reshoot after finding out that the time was wrong.

[racerba]

OK - the arbitration comittee could not have made a decision on the time issue - understandable.

However, the CRO should and could have made a decision to reshoot on the time issue on their own and inform the RM as such, if the time was not recorded at the time of finishing the COF. Seems to me that a reshoot should have been given for the fact that the time wasn't recorded, and/or recorded incorrectly. Obviousely, there was a question on the correct time in which the CRO could not prove to be correct.

To be fair, the shooter apparently didn't dispute the time until someone else said something and showed him the video. Apparently the shooter felt that the 27 seconds was what he shot it in, knowing that he could have done it in 15 seconds.

Not knowing all of the details makes it hard to correctly make a decision. There seems to be a question of wether the time was written down or not.

[shred]

What if a bunch of squadmembers watch the video with stopwatches to 'refresh' their memory of the events, then were called as witnesses?

Is second-hand video evidence permitted? If not, how do you A; make sure the witness really saw the actual event and isn't shamming after watching a video and B; what do you do if they saw the event and also the video?

The reality today is that there most likely IS video of any event at a major match, especially if the supersquad is involved. Why not let the Arb comm have the option to view it if they can't make a decision any other way? Everybody knows eyewitnesses are the worst possible witnesses, and somebody posted a great link the other day on vision in which it is clearly explained why referees and umpires make bad callls so frequently-- the human eye just doesn't work well enough.

[blackdragon]

I believe the shooters time was 17 something, as that is on the final scores on the USPSA web sight.

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[vikings501]

Sorry for the drift, mods feel free to move this post, but a similar thing happened to me at a match. I was the only open shooter in our squad, some pretty decent limited shooters had gone before me, and ran the course in 21.00 to 22.50 seconds. My turn came, I stuck to my plan for a change, no misses, shot some poppers on the move, everything seemed smooth. After the usc command, the R.O. called out my time as 21.77. Several squad members, myself included thougt it seemed faster. After he had scored the targets, I asked the R.O. to review the timer. It was a 25 round course, and the time after the 25th shot was 18.52. I dont know what happened to the timer, and since it was a local match, I let it go. But what should happen if this was a tournament and I asked for arbitration.

[Vince Pinto]

The shooter arbitrated the swinging target, but did not have room to write down the time mistake.

That's truly a pity. Anyway, after considering all the information you have provided, it's clear to me that the only rule which can apply to the incident at that match is:

9.7.3 Should a competitor refuse to sign or initial a score sheet, for any reason, the matter must be referred to the Range Master. If the Range Master is satisfied that the course of fire has been conducted and scored correctly the unsigned score sheet will be submitted as normal for inclusion in the match scores.

As Troy correctly reminded us, there is no prohibition on the use of video evidence in the rulebook applicable to the subject match. Therefore, since the RM was consulted and acted in accordance with the rule above, the only course of action available to the competitor was for him to submit a second appeal to arbitration on the time issue (if I understand you correctly, he still had 15 minutes of his 1 hour appeal period left).

In any case, there should be no "gimmes" in IPSC competitions, at least not at Area or higher level matches. I truly feel bad for the competitor, but it seems to me that the RM observed all the applicable rules in this instance.

[BDH]

[drift]

For you RO's out there..... watch the timer to see that it increments on the last shot, and keep it out of the way of brass flying from the gun, so it doesn't get hit and increment after the last shot! Call the time loud and clear. Make sure it is called back loud and clear. Turn the timer toward the competitor so he/she can see it.

I know this all seems like common sense, but under match pressure it doesn't always get handled that way (yes, I am guilty occassionally too ). Oh, and by the way.... the correct way to hold the timer is with the sensor TOWARD the competitor, NOT bury it tightly in the palm of your hand.

I'll shut up now.

[/drift]

[j1b]

Certainly a re-shoot is in order - and it sounds like based on an earlier post that something was corrected on the score sheet right??

That baffles me. The correct course of action would NOT to have trusted the video and go with the time they thought the shooter ran the COF in.

Although it sounds like the rule has been resolved - video was used (I believe - I wasn't there) to help some shooters at Area 4 dispute some DQ calls.

JB

[sincityshooter]

Blackdragon, I know that you are not black, but do you breath fire?

Although this situation did not change the placings (the shooter finished second in class and could not make up enough to take 1st), a tenth of a second could change the outcome at future matches.

Thanks for all the advice.... it seems like everyone in the forum is on the same page as all the shooters I talked to at the match.

[Neil Beverley]

For you RO's out there..... watch the timer to see that it increments on the last shot, and keep it out of the way of brass flying from the gun, so it doesn't get hit and increment after the last shot!

Brian

You're spot on with this effective but simple technique. However, I'm amazed by how few ROs actually seem to be doing it.

[blackdragon]

Sincityshooter,

Color is not always literal , and sometimes I do!

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[kimber45]

<Rant on>

I'm against video replay, look what happened in the NFL with replays, games lasted forever. Plus not every shooter has acess to video, and what about different camera angles. Video replay would open up to many cans of worms.

<Rant off>

[ivanhu]

For you RO's out there..... watch the timer to see that it increments on the last shot, and keep it out of the way of brass flying from the gun, so it doesn't get hit and increment after the last shot! Call the time loud and clear. Make sure it is called back loud and clear. Turn the timer toward the competitor so he/she can see it.

And when you're at it (that is, watching the timer), always memorize the time the timer shows. When you call the time loud, try to do it from memory - you should be able to remember. In this case, you'll see if the time is increased after the last shot (eg. you hit a button on your shirt with the timer).