Far and Near offical distances and array setup?

[Ty Hamby]

I have looked on the ICORE website. and around here on Enos. I am having a heck of a time figuring out official published data that instructs how the Far and Near should be set up. I have read, 50 , 25, 10, 3. Then last week I shot it 50, 25, 7, 3, Then after looking around I found a post that say set them up 1'6" apart left and right, I thought it was 12". Then again today I find someone saying the top and bottom targets touch. I thought it was 1" apart. Without just telling me , 50, 25, 10, 3 and 12" from ground, 12" apart, 1" spacing. can anyone show me any published data that informs clubs exactly how to set it up? This is no help http://www.icore.org/stages/FAR-AND-NEAR.gif I guess my question is. Does the distances and target array measurements exist in print from ICORE HQ?

[ffl]

Please email our rules director or secretary from the ICORE Site for your answer. I don't have the dimensions in front of me. The are part of the club package and I don't have a club packet.

David Surgi

Co-Chairman ICORE

[Carmoney]

Hmmmm.....wonder why you would need exact dimensions? Planning to "groove it in" a little?

[seanc]

Hmmmm.....wonder why you would need exact dimensions? Planning to "groove it in" a little?

I've heard guys talk about this, they call it "praktis" or something like that.

I'm pretty sure its cheating, I just can't prove it.

[Carmoney]

Yeah, I just wish practicing for a match meant doing all the things it takes to be a better shooter overall, rather than setting up the exact stage (down to the frickin' inch!) and then standing there and shooting it over and over and over......

As I always say when this topic comes up--the IRC would be a better test of shooting ability if the Far and Near Standards were tossed in favor of a Surprise Standards--where nobody knows the distances or the par times until they get to Morro Bay, and then no getting in the groove on the "practice range"!

Make it nearer, make it farther, I don't care--just make it different from one IRC to the next, and don't announce it ahead of time!

[Dragon11]

I have a question. I know this guy, you know like a friend, who likes to dryfire. And this friend, has another friend, who constantly tells him that dryfiring is cheating. Honestly, I'm not trying to turn this forum into relationship advice, but how do I tell my "friend" how to go about talking to someone like that? I mean, when I hear stuff like that, or I mean when my friend hears stuff like that, it hurts, it really hurts!

[jhgtyre]

Yeah, I just wish practicing for a match meant doing all the things it takes to be a better shooter overall, rather than setting up the exact stage (down to the frickin' inch!) and then standing there and shooting it over and over and over......

As I always say when this topic comes up--the IRC would be a better test of shooting ability if the Far and Near Standards were tossed in favor of a Surprise Standards--where nobody knows the distances or the par times until they get to Morro Bay, and then no getting in the groove on the "practice range"!

Make it nearer, make it farther, I don't care--just make it different from one IRC to the next, and don't announce it ahead of time!

+1000

[seanc]

Yeah, I just wish practicing for a match meant doing all the things it takes to be a better shooter overall, rather than setting up the exact stage (down to the frickin' inch!) and then standing there and shooting it over and over and over......

As I always say when this topic comes up--the IRC would be a better test of shooting ability if the Far and Near Standards were tossed in favor of a Surprise Standards--where nobody knows the distances or the par times until they get to Morro Bay, and then no getting in the groove on the "practice range"!

Make it nearer, make it farther, I don't care--just make it different from one IRC to the next, and don't announce it ahead of time!

I would rather that.

My experience was that it helped but not much, but I have terrible consistency problems.

I practiced standard for two months last year prior to the match and it didn't help me all that much on the stage itself.

In practice, I was able to have a first run of the day 18-20 in my last 3 practice sessions. At the match, I disintegrated at the 50 yd line, carried that mentally to 25, and didn't pull myself together until 10 yds and turned what should have easily been a safe 25 second score into a 39.

What it did do though is get me very solid on reloads and accuracy in general and it got me lots of SHO/WHO practice.

For the entire rest of the match I shot 6 B's, no C's and no mikes(excluding makeups in missed steel). Slow, but accurate.

So in totality I think it was very helpful for me.

I agree though, it would be interesting if it were something different.

Edited March 28, 2013 by seanc

[underlug]

Yeah, I just wish practicing for a match meant doing all the things it takes to be a better shooter overall, rather than setting up the exact stage (down to the frickin' inch!) and then standing there and shooting it over and over and over......

As I always say when this topic comes up--the IRC would be a better test of shooting ability if the Far and Near Standards were tossed in favor of a Surprise Standards--where nobody knows the distances or the par times until they get to Morro Bay, and then no getting in the groove on the "practice range"!

Make it nearer, make it farther, I don't care--just make it different from one IRC to the next, and don't announce it ahead of time!

I would rather that.

My experience was that it helped but not much, but I have terrible consistency problems.

I practiced standard for two months last year prior to the match and it didn't help me all that much on the stage itself.

In practice, I was able to have a first run of the day 18-20 in my last 3 practice sessions. At the match, I disintegrated at the 50 yd line, carried that mentally to 25, and didn't pull myself together until 10 yds and turned what should have easily been a safe 25 second score into a 39.

What it did do though is get me very solid on reloads and accuracy in general and it got me lots of SHO/WHO practice.

For the entire rest of the match I shot 6 B's, no C's and no mikes(excluding makeups in missed steel). Slow, but accurate.

So in totality I think it was very helpful for me.

I agree though, it would be interesting if it were something different.

Other than movement, course strategy and moving targets I am at a loss to discern what skills are not covered in practicing the Near and Far Standards

[Bubber]

If one is planning on attending a major match and there is something different than what you are used to, it benefits you to practice that set of skills needed. Other than the 50 yards the Near to Far can be set up at most shooting ranges. The 10 and three yard requiredments are greater than the 50 yard shots. You have to reload smooth and get back on target. The Steel challenge can be "grooved in". Bowling poins, when they were around may have be abled to "grooved in". But I find it rather difficult to "groove in" the standards. And I shoot them quite a bit to make myself ready to shoot the IRC. With the competition as tight as it is one cannot fall down on any stage and have a good chance on winning. Just my thoughts YMMV. Oh, and underlug +1 Roger Davis

[Carmoney]

The Steel challenge can be "grooved in". Bowling poins, when they were around may have be abled to "grooved in".

I do agree with this. You could say the same with Bianchi, too. But pin shooting is dead (RIP). And Steel Challenge and Bianchi, while not dead, have been on life support a couple times. One thing that would immensely improve Steel Challenge is to mix up the stages--there's no reason to do the same dang stages over and over. Boring.

For Far and Near, you certainly have to know how to shoot precision shot at longer ranges to be successful. But you can definitely get grooved in on the par times--I would like to see those mixed up, to make the shooters adjust on the fly. I would prefer the distances vary, so the groovers don't know exactly how many clicks to adjust their sights while moving from one shooting line to the next.

[Carmoney]

Other than movement, course strategy and moving targets I am at a loss to discern what skills are not covered in practicing the Near and Far Standards

Well, movement and course strategy are HUGELY important skill areas for the action shooting disciplines, aren't they?

Let me add a few other items to the list:

Drawing from various positions.

Shooting from odd positions.

Shooting on the move (different than mere movement from place to place).

Reloading on the move.

Engaging targets at various distances on the same array.

Transitioning to multiple targets placed at various spacing on the same array.

[Carmoney]

That said, I don't dispute the fact that Far and Near is an excellent test of many key fundamental shooting skills.

And I do think more shooters need to learn how to make difficult long shots under time pressure--which is the real challenge of the stage.

[toothguy]

That said, I don't dispute the fact that Far and Near is an excellent test of many key fundamental shooting skills.

And I do think more shooters need to learn how to make difficult long shots under time pressure--which is the real challenge of the stage.

Mike, I know you are a good shooter, so how do you practice to cover the key fundamental shooting skills in ICORE and USPSA? What do you do in a good shooting session to cover these? Thanks.

Edited March 29, 2013 by toothguy

[seanc]

For me, far and near is about accuracy under a time constraint and smooth reloads. Not particularly about speed at all, or any of a dozen or more other skills you guys listed.

I definitely grooved in the par times. When I initially started I was racing through them and leaving seconds of extra time and the accuracy reflected that. As I figured out how to slow down and leave myself right at .5 seconds on each par accuracy kept getting better and better. So without question I grooved in the timing aspect.

That groove hurt my speed in general though, because I was searching for the X ring on every shot, that timing sort of built itself into all my shooting for the rest of the match, lingering to long on each shot.

It is fair to say I practiced standards pretty much to the exclusion of all other skills last year. Consequently it was particularly bitter to crash and burn on the stage but I do believe that in general it raised my basic shooting and reloading to the point that I performed about where I should have for the match.

Edited March 29, 2013 by seanc

[Carmoney]

That said, I don't dispute the fact that Far and Near is an excellent test of many key fundamental shooting skills.

And I do think more shooters need to learn how to make difficult long shots under time pressure--which is the real challenge of the stage.

Mike, I know you are a good shooter, so how do you practice to cover the key fundamental shooting skills in ICORE and USPSA? What do you do in a good shooting session to cover these? Thanks.

Practice??

I don't have time for practice. I do shoot a lot of local matches--so I guess that is my practice! I do make sure that my equipment always works perfectly, and is properly sighted in. That's about it.

[toothguy]

That said, I don't dispute the fact that Far and Near is an excellent test of many key fundamental shooting skills.

And I do think more shooters need to learn how to make difficult long shots under time pressure--which is the real challenge of the stage.

Mike, I know you are a good shooter, so how do you practice to cover the key fundamental shooting skills in ICORE and USPSA? What do you do in a good shooting session to cover these? Thanks.

Practice??

I don't have time for practice. I do shoot a lot of local matches--so I guess that is my practice! I do make sure that my equipment always works perfectly, and is properly sighted in. That's about it.

Ok, but you didn't get to be as good as you are without covering the fundamentals at speed. Knowing what you know now, what practice regiment would you advise for a intro revolver shooter in ICORE or USPSA that wants to work his way up. Thanks.

Edited March 29, 2013 by toothguy

[underlug]

Other than movement, course strategy and moving targets I am at a loss to discern what skills are not covered in practicing the Near and Far Standards

Well, movement and course strategy are HUGELY important skill areas for the action shooting disciplines, aren't they?

Let me add a few other items to the list:

Drawing from various positions.

Shooting from odd positions.

Shooting on the move (different than mere movement from place to place).

Reloading on the move.

Engaging targets at various distances on the same array.

Transitioning to multiple targets placed at various spacing on the same array.

Drawing from various positions. Conceeded

Shooting from odd positions. Nothing is odder to me than going prone

Shooting on the move (different than mere movement from place to place). included in movement

Reloading on the move. included in movement

Engaging targets at various distances on the same array. Conceeded and important

Transitioning to multiple targets placed at various spacing on the same array. Essentially the same as above

[Carmoney]

Ok, but you didn't get to be as good as you are without covering the fundamentals at speed. Knowing what you know now, what practice regiment would you advise for a intro revolver shooter in ICORE or USPSA that wants to work his way up. Thanks.

Here are my recommendations for you:

1. When shooting, always make every shot count. Use full power match ammo. No plinking.

2. Strengthen your grip in both hands, and always hang onto the gun hard when shooting. Seriously--hang on hard.

3. Be able to call every shot. If you miss, you should know exactly where that bullet went based on the sight picture when the gun fired.

4. Be able to shoot a 2-inch group offhand at 15 yards on demand, and have your gun sighted in so that group is exactly where you are aiming.

5. Work out a reloading technique that is motion-efficient. Get the gun close to the belt while it's open. Look down and use your visual focus to watch the reload go into the cylinder every time. Do most of your reloading practice while moving.

6. Get comfortable shooting from weird angles and positions.

7. Don't be afraid to run hard. Shoot on the move only when you are sure you can get decent hits, and when it is actually saving you time.

8. Understand that most of your time savings will not be while you are actually shooting. Learn to come into and out of shooting positions quickly.

9. Play racquetball twice a week.

10. Smoke only good cigars. Life is too short for shitty cigars.

[toothguy]

Thanks MIke.

[Ty Hamby]

Before the 2013 IRC I will have shot the F&N 6-7 times for match score. Plus a couple of live fire practice runs. I typically shoot it in the 33-38 seconds currently. In 2011 I shot it for the first time some where in the 70's as a D shooter. Last year at the 2012 IRC I shot it in 35 as a C shooter I think. I owe the improved time all to practice. Not live fire, but dry fire. A five time world IRC champion told me the reload at the 10 and the 3 was the 2 most important reloads of the entire match. Miss them and you destroy your overall score. I took that to heart and started practicing those. My wife and I had more than 100 dry fire runs (at the 10&3) practices under our belts, by the time we both showed up to the last IRC. I did flop and practice the 50 and 25, but only enough to memorize the cadence. My success has been learning all the different cadences you need depending on the reload. Good reloads have slow methodical x-hit attempts on the bottom row. If you have a slight hesitations on the reload that means you need to pick up the speed. Fast b's are what your going for this point. An all out flub on the reload means your just pulling the trigger as fast as humanly possible before the timer goes off. Mastering the cadences is the secret.It really is that simple. Dry fire the 10&3 with par time, delay start holster , weighted, snap caps or dummy ammo, and you will save yourself the misery of holstering before the timer even beeps or even worst acquiring the the bottom row only to hear beep. I made myself some practice aids last year. Anyone that wants to download them can find it at the link below. The reason for this post is because at one club this year had it at the 7&3. After looking through old rulebooks, old IRC match booklets, even the ICORE website. Nothing... nothing defining the measurement of the shooting boxes to targets. http://www.nvsa.info/?q=node/1464

P.S. Our club packet has the same N&F listed in this thread. There is no distances for the boxes.

Please email our rules director or secretary from the ICORE Site for your answer. I don't have the dimensions in front of me. The are part of the club package and I don't have a club packet.

David Surgi

Co-Chairman ICORE

Edited April 1, 2013 by Ty Hamby

[seanc]

Before the 2013 IRC I will have shot the F&N 6-7 times for match score. Plus a couple of live fire practice runs. I typically shoot it in the 33-38 seconds currently. In 2011 I shot it for the first time some where in the 70's as a D shooter. Last year at the 2012 IRC I shot it in 35 as a C shooter I think. I owe the improved time all to practice. Not live fire, but dry fire. A five time world IRC champion told me the reload at the 10 and the 3 was the 2 most important reloads of the entire match. Miss them and you destroy your overall score. I took that to heart and started practicing those. My wife and I had more than 100 dry fire runs (at the 10&3) practices under our belts, by the time we both showed up to the last IRC. I did flop and practice the 50 and 25, but only enough to memorize the cadence. My success has been learning all the different cadences you need depending on the reload. Good reloads have slow methodical x-hit attempts on the bottom row. If you have a slight hesitations on the reload that means you need to pick up the speed. Fast b's are what your going for this point. An all out flub on the reload means your just pulling the trigger as fast as humanly possible before the timer goes off. Mastering the cadences is the secret.It really is that simple. Dry fire the 10&3 with par time, delay start holster , weighted, snap caps or dummy ammo, and you will save yourself the misery of holstering before the timer even beeps or even worst acquiring the the bottom row only to hear beep. I made myself some practice aids last year. Anyone that wants to download them can find it at the link below. The reason for this post is because at one club this year had it at the 7&3. After looking through old rulebooks, old IRC match booklets, even the ICORE website. Nothing... nothing defining the measurement of the shooting boxes to targets. http://www.nvsa.info/?q=node/1464

P.S. Our club packet has the same N&F listed in this thread. There is no distances for the boxes.

Please email our rules director or secretary from the ICORE Site for your answer. I don't have the dimensions in front of me. The are part of the club package and I don't have a club packet.

David Surgi

Co-Chairman ICORE

The first time I ever shot standards my score was a 119 or something crazy like that. The first time I shot it at the match in 2011, with 5 months experience, I think was a 65, that was no par times though.

Anyhow, last year I shot far and near every wednesday night for 8-10 runs for 9 weeks.. I dry fired it compulsively and daily on scale targets for 50 and 25 and full size for 10yd and 3 yd at least 1 hour a day and several hours a day at least some of the time. It is fair to say I dry fired the entire course of fire thousands of times in totality over the two months leading up to the match.

That was the totality of my practice for the 2012 IRC.

The effort paid off as in the last two weeks, I did 3 runs, cold, no warm up, where first run of the day was a 19. A wise man told me to expect to add 10% to that time and that is what I could expect at the match if I held together... and if I could do that I would be in good company...that of course did not translate at the match where I doubled the time. I did something stupid going prone, came down hard on an elbow, panicked when I couldn't find the dot, then ripped off 6 shots. That set the tone for the rest of the stage unfortunately.

I don't know if there are any lessons here. I think I should be a lot better than I am for the amount of time applied and that practice was not always effective. I know better regards to this. 15 minutes of highly directed practice is far more valuable than 2 hours of pure repetitions.

My experience anyways. When I dry fire now, its never more than 10-15 minutes unless I am really feeling it. I also grip the gun much harder than I used to and fatigue builds quickly, so I have to take breaks.

I also know that even this amount of time is a drop in the bucket compared to what the match leaders put in at some point in their progression...

Edited April 1, 2013 by seanc

[Ty Hamby]

Still nothing but crickets from HQ, no published spec as of now. Starting to think it is a made up setup each time.

[seanc]

I set them up exactly like your OP says

bottom target 1 foot off ground.

top target 1" above bottom target.

1 foot edge to edge separation.

It is a little ironic that a stage called "standards" doesn't have published target setup specification.

Then again, the AP1 target that I have seen at the last two IRC's was not a legal target in the rule book and was only just amended to make it legal.

[Ty Hamby]

I set them up exactly like your OP says

bottom target 1 foot off ground.

top target 1" above bottom target.

1 foot edge to edge separation.

It is a little ironic that a stage called "standards" doesn't have published target setup specification.

Then again, the AP1 target that I have seen at the last two IRC's was not a legal target in the rule book and was only just amended to make it legal.

What is the consensis on the boxes. 50,25,10,3 ? or 50,25,7,3 ?