mike4045 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Its there a rule number that states that a production gun can't be single action only ( browning hi power). Other than the list that does not include it our the rule that states it must start decocked. Or the other club lets me shoot production if I only load 10. He also feels it isn't fair to go to open for a rules violation. I went thru rule book on my phone but didn't see the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but there are no SAO guns on the approved list. If there is a club that allows you to shoot a BHP in production, they aren't following USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 I know that was just looking for a specific rule number. Showed him the list. He wanted a specific rule number that says he can't use it in production. Thought was one that stated double action or striker fired as types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 The approved list is pretty much a set of rules. Example: Browning - BDA (30.4 oz.), BDM (31 oz.), PRO40 (33 oz.), PRO9 (30 oz.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 The approved list is pretty much a set of rules. Example: Browning - BDA (30.4 oz.), BDM (31 oz.), PRO40 (33 oz.), PRO9 (30 oz.)[/color Pretty much how we interpreted it. He's just being a pia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 App D4 Special Considerations A handgun may be approved and added to the USPSAApproved Production Handgun List after the NROI Manufacturer’s Declaration form stating that a minimum of 2000 complete handguns have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance The gun is legal in all divisions except Revolver and Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 If memory serves me, in a prior version of Appendix D, single action were specifically prohibited. My guess is NROI decided the approved list for production was sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 From the 2004 Rulebook: 16. Only handguns approved and listed on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division. 17. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited. First shot must be double action. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to making the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed if the first double action shot attempted fails to discharge due to a malfunction, or in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the hand- gun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. That was done away with in the 2008 rulebook which under Appendix D4, item 19 states: Handgun specific approval for Division Yes - see Special Conditions The special condition reads: A handgun may be approved and added to the USPSA Approved Production Handgun List after the NROI Manufacturer’s Declaration form stating that a minimum of 2000 complete handguns have been manufactured and available to the general public has been submitted and NROI has inspected the handgun for compliance. Those are the rules that have historically been applicable. That should illustrate the importance of the Production gun list in determining the suitability of a specific gun to the Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) 8.1.2.1 ready condition 30 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safe- ty engaged. and D4 special conditions USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 81 APPENDIX D4 — Production Division (Contd.) Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. Since a BHP is a single action pistol, it cannot comply with both. Edited March 17, 2013 by Round_Gun_Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 8.1.2.1 ready condition 30 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safe- ty engaged. and D4 special conditions USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition • 81 APPENDIX D4 — Production Division (Contd.) Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. Since a BHP is a single action pistol, it cannot comply with both. Very nice! You sir, are a rules lawyer of the first order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 So, it is against the rules to start a shooter with a single action gun if the hammer is de-cocked? I always thought the onus was on the shooter to make sure they were ready to shoot, except for eyes and ears... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 If you can fire the gun double action for the first shot it is legal. If you need to manually cock the hammer to get off the first shot then it is not. Then it is a true single action and illegal for Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 So, it is against the rules to start a shooter with a single action gun if the hammer is de-cocked? I always thought the onus was on the shooter to make sure they were ready to shoot, except for eyes and ears... The onus is on the shooter. However the onus is on the RO to notice if a competitor holsters a single action pistol without applying the safety, and to dq the competitor...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike l m Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 mike4045, I was not being a pia, just asked where the rule was and what it was. We both found the answer as to it having an external hammer can not be in production class. So that put it in limited 10. So please the next time you want to express something on the forum, please explain the whole issue. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 We both found the answer as to it having an external hammer can not be in production class. Having an external hammer has nothing to do with it. External hammers are legal in Production DIVISION. Single action guns are not. The best way to figure out if a gun is legal for Production is to just reference the approved list. If it's not there it's a no go. And it looks like it used to be layed out in an old rulebook as mentioned above. But dude, it's 2012 and the current rulebook is from 2008. Try to keep up with the changes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Since the question has been answered, and this has gotten personal, I'm going to close this thread. If anyone has anything new to add, please PM a moderator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts