Clearing House for New Division Ideas

[beltjones]

What Robbie - TGO - and I agreed on in a prior post.

TGO

Gunga la gunga.....

• 
  
• Classified
  
• 
  
• 195 posts
  

• Gender:Male
  

Posted Yesterday, 09:30 PM

Steve RA, on 04 February 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

No Doug (real old joke) I'm not bitter, just thought I'd add something new to the discussion and see how other people felt about it.

As far as the optics go, I suggested that about Senior and Super Senior classes some time back and everyone seemed to think that the answer was to shoot Open. Thats ok, but if you have managed to advance to Senior or Super Senior you probably could not be very competitive in Open, especially if you just wanted to shoot your Single Stack gun. I even suggested that it would have to be a slide mounted dot so you could still use the same holster and gear.

I agree 100% with this!!!

Rob Leatham

• Back to top
  
• Quote
  

To amplify slightly, It would not require any new divisions, you would just agree - if you had an optic - that you were only in competition with other Seniors, Super Seniors using optics. After all, Open class is open to optics or iron sights, it's just that most in the class now use optics. It's possible that most S and SS would eventually use dots, also it would keep more people in the sport, more match fees and the possibility of more young people being introduced to the sport if their - mostly - grand parents participated in the sport. It was mentioned that all slide mounted dots don't hold up, more people using them might speed up improvements and I seem to remember a number of posts complaining about frame mounted optics failing also.

I think that would be rad. But it would be cooler to do it in the guise of Modified division, where you have major/minor scoring, ports and comps legal, optics and dots, but everything has to fit in a box.

If the thought is that Production is "slow" enough that super seniors can be competitive as long as they use a dot, I think everyone is in for a rude awakening.

[Flexmoney]

I have been to, and shot, .22 rimfire side-matches at one of my local USPSA clubs. I don't care to do it again. (I do love 22's though)

The theory sounds nice, but the reality is that they don't work out all that well...for a variety of reasons.

You know where nearly ALL of these ideas work great? Steel Challenge. (when I say Steel Challenge, I mean the local sport, not the big match)

[MarkCO]

Rimfire has it's place, but not in USPSA. I'm the MD for the World match in September, and a die hard 3gunner. The game will be stepped up!

[MarkCO]

DT

Edited February 6, 2013 by MarkCO

[Steve RA]

The point with the optics for S and SS is not to start a new class, it would be allowed in any class and you would be competeting with other S and SS shooter who also had optics.

You would be listed in the overall match results where ever you finished, like everyone else, but you would only be competeting with other S and SS optic shooters. Prizes could be given if enough competeted in any class. The idea is that you could still shoot whatever you wanted - just with a slide mounted optic. If you already competed in open then you'd just keep on.

It should not be a problem for scoring as there is already Senior and Super Senior, you'd just put an /O behind it if using an optic.

[sperman]

What about the 20 year old with an eye injury, or the 30 year old that has coke bottle glasses? Making special rules for different categories leads down a slippery slope. IMO, there is either a "Production Optic" division, or there isn't.

[lee blackman]

Got another one..... since like I always see people wanting to compete with their 7 or 8 shot revolver, and since there is now one whole state with a 7 round capacity restriction on semi-autos... Have a division that combines them all. The "Restricted" division... It will allow 7 or 8 shot revolvers and semi-autos restricted to 7rd capacities....

[mpolans]

I would like to see single stack allow other single stack pistols to play think Sig 220, S+W 645,610 ect. I don't think anything is going to unseat the 1911 as the "best" pistol for the division but it would be nice to be able to shoot one of the other single stack pistol designs in a slightly more competitive division.

Mike

I like this idea.

[mpolans]

I have some ideas to change certain divisions, and I know everyone else does too. Let's throw a bunch of ideas at the board and see what sticks.

Idea 1: Replace L10 with Modified. With the rising popularity of optics on carry guns, it might make sense to give these people a place to play, and also use "the crucible of competition" to shape how these products are marketed in the future.

I like idea 1. I always thought Modified was an under appreciated Division that USPSA should have added. As Open guns became less practical and all started to look the same, I thought Modified offered a new way for gunsmiths and manufacturers to become creative again while still being somewhat "practical." While you'll probably never see a cop carry an Open gun, something similar to a Modified gun might not be that far fetched in the near future.

[sperman]

Modified died in Europe. Why do we want to resurrect it here?

[mpolans]

I think production needs a revamp. No single actions, but if it otherwise fits into a "box" and a particular Max weight, it should be permitted. I also find it odd that lots of internal mods that provide an advantage are allowed, but no external mods. I often thought the IDPA rules made more sense than uspsa rules. 15 rd mags would be lots of fun, too.

Funny, Production is rapidly becoming that, what with Amidon's impending rule interpretation allowing CZ Custom's Short Trigger Reset System (SRTS) modification to become Production Legal. His ruling will effectively mean that Appendix D4, 21.1 regarding external changes applies for the first shot only. Some are arguing that CZ Custom's bushing modification also be made Production legal...I'm betting Amidon will probably rule in favor of that too. Limited will likely become Open with iron sights and barrel weights, while Production is heading towards becoming Limited 10. It probably won't be long before folks will be expected to spend $1500-2000 on a gun in order to be competitive in "Production" Division.

[beltjones]

Modified died in Europe. Why do we want to resurrect it here?

How's the product launch for the new S&W C.O.R.E going in Europe? Are a lot of people there getting red dot sights milled onto the slides of their G23s? Is the concealed carry market there rapidly coming around to the idea of a slide-mounted optic like they are here?

Now, I'm not saying a G23 with a dot would be competitive in Modified, but it would be the logical place for it to play, and there is an increasing number of them out there. Ditto ported G19s, and so on. Plus, as previously stated the Modified division would almost certainly influence the carry market when it comes to optics and various forms of comps.

I'm not surprised that Modified didn't work in Europe. But the US market is certainly not the same as Europe.

[beltjones]

I think production needs a revamp. No single actions, but if it otherwise fits into a "box" and a particular Max weight, it should be permitted. I also find it odd that lots of internal mods that provide an advantage are allowed, but no external mods. I often thought the IDPA rules made more sense than uspsa rules. 15 rd mags would be lots of fun, too.

Funny, Production is rapidly becoming that, what with Amidon's impending rule interpretation allowing CZ Custom's Short Trigger Reset System (SRTS) modification to become Production Legal. His ruling will effectively mean that Appendix D4, 21.1 regarding external changes applies for the first shot only. Some are arguing that CZ Custom's bushing modification also be made Production legal...I'm betting Amidon will probably rule in favor of that too. Limited will likely become Open with iron sights and barrel weights, while Production is heading towards becoming Limited 10. It probably won't be long before folks will be expected to spend $1500-2000 on a gun in order to be competitive in "Production" Division.

I think you're confusing a couple of issues. First, the rules of our sport are codified, not based in precedent. Amidon ruling that a part made by an OEM CZ manufacturer, which CZ Custom is, installed on a Production-legal gun and offered by the factory, does not mean that external changes apply to the first shot only. It only means that he interprets the SRT to be a factory part installed on a Production-approved gun.

Second, they're submitting the Accu-Shadow as a unique model for approval for the division. Much like when they submitted the 75 Shadow for approval.

[mpolans]

So as long as the Custom Shop division of an OEM makes the part, D4, 21.1 doesn't apply to anything after the first shot? Because that's the only logical way to interpret his call in light of the wording of 21.1.

It is undeniably an internal modification (albeit a change and fitting of parts by a manufacturer's custom shop division) that results in a visible external change when the gun is in battery for every shot after the first.

Frankly, CZ Custom "factory" mod or not, it fundamentally alters the action of the gun. If CZ wanted the SRTS to be legal, they should have been forced to submit it as a separate model as they are doing with the accu-shadow.

If the accu-shadow is submitted as a separate gun and is added to the list, I see no problem. However, I see no way that the bushing modification could be performed on an existing Production gun under the current rules.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mpolans

[beltjones]

It doesn't alter the action of the gun at all. It doesn't change the DA trigger pull at all, it doesn't change the break of the trigger, it only eliminates some pre-travel.

One could argue that internal overtravel stops in Glock pistols are similar. They don't change anything except some of the movement of the trigger, which is externally visible. Yet I don't see you or anyone else taking up that cause. If you cock the hammer on a CZ with SRT installed you will see the the change from stock. If you pull the trigger on a Glock with an overtravel stop installed you will see that it has been modified. The difference is that Glock doesn't offer a factory overtravel stop, but CZ Custom does offer the SRT.

[mpolans]

It doesn't alter the action of the gun at all. It doesn't change the DA trigger pull at all, it doesn't change the break of the trigger, it only eliminates some pre-travel.

One could argue that internal overtravel stops in Glock pistols are similar. They don't change anything except some of the movement of the trigger, which is externally visible. Yet I don't see you or anyone else taking up that cause. If you cock the hammer on a CZ with SRT installed you will see the the change from stock. If you pull the trigger on a Glock with an overtravel stop installed you will see that it has been modified. The difference is that Glock doesn't offer a factory overtravel stop, but CZ Custom does offer the SRT.

You're confusing pre-travel, over-travel, and reset. They are all very different things. if you don't know the difference I can understand how you would be confused. Pre-travel is the take up or slack in a trigger before resistance is felt; reduction of this may result in a visible change when in battery depending how it's done. Over-travel is the distance the trigger travels after the hammer/striker is released; reduction of this may result in a visible change when in battery (Beretta triggers with bumps = no go, Glocks with internal stops ok). Reset is the distance a trigger has to travel forward after releasing the hammer/striker before it is ready to re-engage the hammer/sear/striker for the next shot; reduction of this by itself wouldn't cause a visible change when a gun is in battery, but in CZ's SRTS case, it does for every single-action shot fired (i.e., everyone after the first).

One way it could be done so it didn't would be if CZ were to increase the amount of single-action pre-travel to match that of an unmodified gun. People with the mod would still get the benefit of the shortened reset while still complying with the text of the rule.

[beltjones]

It doesn't alter the action of the gun at all. It doesn't change the DA trigger pull at all, it doesn't change the break of the trigger, it only eliminates some pre-travel.

One could argue that internal overtravel stops in Glock pistols are similar. They don't change anything except some of the movement of the trigger, which is externally visible. Yet I don't see you or anyone else taking up that cause. If you cock the hammer on a CZ with SRT installed you will see the the change from stock. If you pull the trigger on a Glock with an overtravel stop installed you will see that it has been modified. The difference is that Glock doesn't offer a factory overtravel stop, but CZ Custom does offer the SRT.

You're confusing pre-travel, over-travel, and reset. They are all very different things. if you don't know the difference I can understand how you would be confused. Pre-travel is the take up or slack in a trigger before resistance is felt; reduction of this may result in a visible change when in battery depending how it's done. Over-travel is the distance the trigger travels after the hammer/striker is released; reduction of this may result in a visible change when in battery (Beretta triggers with bumps = no go, Glocks with internal stops ok). Reset is the distance a trigger has to travel forward after releasing the hammer/striker before it is ready to re-engage the hammer/sear/striker for the next shot; reduction of this by itself wouldn't cause a visible change when a gun is in battery, but in CZ's SRTS case, it does for every single-action shot fired (i.e., everyone after the first).

One way it could be done so it didn't would be if CZ were to increase the amount of single-action pre-travel to match that of an unmodified gun. People with the mod would still get the benefit of the shortened reset while still complying with the text of the rule.

lol. I can tell you've never handled a gun with the SRT. It doesn't change the amount of reset, and in fact the name is a misnomer. It simply shortens the pre-travel.

I really appreciate the condescension, but you stated that the SRT fundamentally changes the action of the gun. It does not. It changes the amount of pre-travel. I pointed out that there are other cases that are legal that also change elements of trigger pull (pre-travel is one such element, over-travel is another) which are perfectly legal.

Bottom line: It's a factory part installed on Production-legal guns.

[Racer377]

If a Glock has a pre-travel stop, the trigger doesn't sit as far forward as an unmodified gun (even before the first shot), and would thus be illegal under that rather odd interpretation of the rules.

[beltjones]

If a Glock has a pre-travel stop, the trigger doesn't sit as far forward as an unmodified gun (even before the first shot), and would thus be illegal under that rather odd interpretation of the rules.

If Glock started making Production-legal guns that came from the factory with a pre-travel stop I don't think anyone would object to it being legal in Production division. CZ does the same and suddenly a few people go on crusades to argue the legality.

[Racer377]

If a Glock has a pre-travel stop, the trigger doesn't sit as far forward as an unmodified gun (even before the first shot), and would thus be illegal under that rather odd interpretation of the rules.

If Glock started making Production-legal guns that came from the factory with a pre-travel stop I don't think anyone would object to it being legal in Production division. CZ does the same and suddenly a few people go on crusades to argue the legality.

I don't think anyone really objects to them as an illegal aftermarket thing as it stands now? Maybe Mpolans does?

[mpolans]

It doesn't alter the action of the gun at all. It doesn't change the DA trigger pull at all, it doesn't change the break of the trigger, it only eliminates some pre-travel.

One could argue that internal overtravel stops in Glock pistols are similar. They don't change anything except some of the movement of the trigger, which is externally visible. Yet I don't see you or anyone else taking up that cause. If you cock the hammer on a CZ with SRT installed you will see the the change from stock. If you pull the trigger on a Glock with an overtravel stop installed you will see that it has been modified. The difference is that Glock doesn't offer a factory overtravel stop, but CZ Custom does offer the SRT.

You're confusing pre-travel, over-travel, and reset. They are all very different things. if you don't know the difference I can understand how you would be confused. Pre-travel is the take up or slack in a trigger before resistance is felt; reduction of this may result in a visible change when in battery depending how it's done. Over-travel is the distance the trigger travels after the hammer/striker is released; reduction of this may result in a visible change when in battery (Beretta triggers with bumps = no go, Glocks with internal stops ok). Reset is the distance a trigger has to travel forward after releasing the hammer/striker before it is ready to re-engage the hammer/sear/striker for the next shot; reduction of this by itself wouldn't cause a visible change when a gun is in battery, but in CZ's SRTS case, it does for every single-action shot fired (i.e., everyone after the first).

One way it could be done so it didn't would be if CZ were to increase the amount of single-action pre-travel to match that of an unmodified gun. People with the mod would still get the benefit of the shortened reset while still complying with the text of the rule.

lol. I can tell you've never handled a gun with the SRT. It doesn't change the amount of reset, and in fact the name is a misnomer. It simply shortens the pre-travel.

I really appreciate the condescension, but you stated that the SRT fundamentally changes the action of the gun. It does not. It changes the amount of pre-travel. I pointed out that there are other cases that are legal that also change elements of trigger pull (pre-travel is one such element, over-travel is another) which are perfectly legal.

Bottom line: It's a factory part installed on Production-legal guns.

Okay, even if it only eliminates pre-travel, as depicted in pictures on this forum and in advertising on CZ Custom's website, when the hammer on a modified and unmodified gun are cocked, the trigger on the modified gun is visibly further to the rear than the unmodified one...are you saying this doesn't occur? If the trigger is no further to the rear, then I'll apologize for wasting bandwidth and see no problems with it.

Second, what difference does it make if a part is made by the custom shop of a manufacturer? Where in Appendix D4 is the exception to limits on modifications for factory custom shops?

[mpolans]

If a Glock has a pre-travel stop, the trigger doesn't sit as far forward as an unmodified gun (even before the first shot), and would thus be illegal under that rather odd interpretation of the rules.

If Glock started making Production-legal guns that came from the factory with a pre-travel stop I don't think anyone would object to it being legal in Production division. CZ does the same and suddenly a few people go on crusades to argue the legality.

If Glock started making complete guns as described and submitted them to be added to the Production List and they were approved, I don't see a problem. If Glock's US subsidiary had a custom shop that started retrofitting pre-travel stops to guns already on the Production List that resulted in a visible external change, I'd say that it violated D4, 21.1.

All I'm asking for is a little rule integrity here. Either change the text of the rule to say "For the first shot only..." or something similar or enforce it as it is written.

Frankly, in many ways, I think "Production" has already jumped the shark by allowing milling of slides for Bomars and stippling/texturing of grip frames. It's getting pretty far from its original purpose of being a division that allowed very few mods to keep costs down and make it entry-level friendly.

Perhaps in light of this we need a new Production Division that is more true to the original intent of production and rename existing "Production" as Production Plus/Limited Lite. :roll eyes:

[Chuck Anderson]

Mpolans. Do you know how the SRTS works? how the modification is done? I would have agreed with you as well till I figured out how it was done.

[lawboy]

I have always loved the modified guns. I was saddened when IPSC killed modified. Open guns have never interested me. But the modified guns seem like the pathway to the next iteration of practical, defensive guns that could be carried daily and would yield real world benefits. I have often thought I might build a modified gun and shoot it in open just because I think they are so cool. USPSA should add a modified division. I think it would go over very well in the U.S. I definitely would shoot it.

[mhop]

modified was always more popular than revolver in IPSC, i think it would be in USPSA also