Nationals format

[Sestock]

MY only real complaint was about a certain group of international competitors that did not paste targets or set steel. We heard many RO's telling them to paste, but they simply ignored the requests. I know it is a cultural thing and they do not have to paste or set steel at home. They caused my squad to sit an wait on over half of the stages for them to finish. I assume that they were told to help out by the match staff.

[Chriss Grube]

KDJ,

Actually it would cut the sandbagging because the only way you get to go is IF YOU EARN the slot. That comes from match performance at a Section or Area match. It would cut out the guys that don't shoot classifiers all year or big matches and the guys that are M in limited and then go shoot A in L-10. You earn a slot in a Division and you shoot that division at the Nats. Nationals is about seeing who is the best shooters not giving the vendors a full tent of people to sell stuff too. There would still be plenty of slots that are there to be earned by shooting majors not just getting on a list with 250 bucks in hand.

[Sestock]

They discussed this at the Annual meeting about 1/2 of the 600 slots come through earned slots and Section slots, the others were from the general membership. If we were to go to earned slot only then only about 300 people would have attended this years match.

[kdj]

Actually it would cut the sandbagging because the only way you get to go is IF YOU EARN the slot. That comes from match performance at a Section or Area match.

Hmm ... I don't see that. I currently have no motivation to sandbag since I'm not concerned that about prizes. I'd grandbag if I could work out how since I think that getting an M card (eventually!) would be cool.

If the only way I could get to go to the Nationals (or any other match I'd really, really like to attend) was to win a class at an Area Championship, then I'd do my best to stay in a class I have a chance of winning, i.e. sandbagging.

I think the current system of people earning the right to be on a "super squad" but allowing those who want to attend and be part of the match ,with out much hope of winning overall , gives the best of both worlds ... but your mileage may vary.

Kevin

[Chriss Grube]

Kevin,

The error in your thinking is that in order to win your class you will generally have to shoot into the next class to do it, then you get bumped. There goes the sandbagging out the window or you stay home from Nats.

Doug,

300 shooters for Nats. is fine. You can cut back the length of time, still keep 20-25 stages, and have the prestige brought back by having to earn your way there. Let's face it most of the Nats only for the last few years have only been getting around 250 anyway. That was with the split format so a bunch were shooting both.

[kdj]

The error in your thinking is that in order to win your class you will generally have to shoot into the next class to do it, then you get bumped.

True - so you could only sandbag once

Your proposed set up would make the nationals less interesting *to me*. It would become just another match I'd read about in the magazines (unless, of course, I become good enough to qualify but then this comment would be made by the next person in my position now). I wouldn't be there, I wouldn't get to see the top folk shoot and it wouldn't have as much impact on me.

The great thing about this year was that I got to shoot the stages and to watch people who really knew what they were doing shoot them too. I'd vote for participation rather than elitism. I'd like to see even more of the membership shooting in the biggest event of the year!

My perspective might be different if I was a front running GM but I don't think so ... We shall probably have to agree to disagree

Kevin

[Barrettone]

Sestock:

I was the one who brought it up at the annual...that is why in my post above, I said that we should go to giving out slots for top 5 or top 6 finishes instead of the top 3...that would keep the shooter numbers where they are. I denoted that the slot count takes into effect duplicate slots earned, as well as those that simply opt not to attend. Hope this is clearer now.

Jeff

[mactiger]

I am quite capable of discussing the good and the bad of matches that I am involved with...without taking offense   

Alex

Great, so am I, as long as the person I'm discussing them with has some basis in fact, some constructive suggestions for improvement to make, and doesn't make insinuations about the integrity of the match staff. See the copy of your comments below.

However, the goat rope Saturday "4pm announced, 4:25pm actual" five (5!) hours after the shootoff trophy hand-out fiasco was a stellar example of evil in action. From the general discussion, two scenarios presented themselves with equal validity. Either there was a sweetheart deal promised to the nice Barry (???) Civic Protection Agency ("oh, sure, 600 people will stay one extra day just because we can't read a clock and efficiently put together a schedule"), or it was a concerted effort to get shooters fed up with the inability of the Folks In Charge to read a clock and efficiently put together a schedule and thus leave early, thereby saving prizes for another match or the RO table.

The time and date for the awards was set months in advance, taking into account the fact that we did not believe S&W hall was large enough to handle either prizes or awards, and the fact that the Oakley Lindsay center was booked solid, and the fact that with a projected 600 competitors we had to have some time built into the schedule for problems caused by weather. In the past few years, we've had to cancel shooting some days, or rebuild props torn up by overnight weather. This all adds delays to the schedule, and sometimes we need Saturday to make that up. Better safe than sorry. It just happened that this year we had almost negligible rain on Wednesday, with the heaviest during the lunch break. Nobody was forced to remain in town, either--you could leave and have someone else get your trophy or prize or both. Some opted to do that.

If someone can give me a squadding schedule that allows 600 people to shoot a 24 stage match in 3 or 3 1/2 days, please do so. Take into account that the needs of the media people need to be accomodated, so please schedule the top shooters accordingly, so everyone gets on video, and the media people have time to get set up, etc. Also consider that you must hand out awards and prizes somehow, and might have some bad weather along the way. You can email it directly to me at mactiger@eatel.net

Bottom line, Alex: I'm sure your matches are great. I've never heard anyone complain, and since I wasn't there, I wouldn't repeat it even if I heard it. Was there room for improvement in the prize distribution? Of course, and I've stated that I don't know what happened there, but it didn't go right. In fact, I'd suggested that the prize staff do exactly what Shred suggested, using multiple lists to get people in order. Don't know why that didn't happen--I was working shootoffs and awards. Awards were delayed for the reasons I stated earlier.

Troy

[BDH]

thereby saving prizes for another match or the RO table.

Troy, apparently, I missed the RO Prize table. When was that held, and did I win anything??

[Turtle]

Troy,

First of all let me say thank you for all that you and the rest of the staff did to make the Nationals the best that it could be under the circumstances. By that I mean within the format and guidelines laid down by the powers that be. I was a little unsure at first how to take your comment to me at the awards ceremony. When you handed me my plaque, instead of the usual "good shooting" or "nice job" you went, "wow..." I'm sure you didn't mean any harm, but I was kind of surprised by it. While I'm on the subject, I also think that Eric G. was dissed pretty badly. I just thought that he deserved a little more respect and recognition for winning the match. This is not directed towards you, I'm just putting it out there. I'm not even going to go into the prize table issue right now. I'll address my concerns with that issue in the future with the people responsible...

Once again, I sincerely thank you sir, and the rest of the staff for a great match. Hopefully the next one will be more accommodating to more shooters (if that's possible).

Regards,

Todd

[Wakal]

BDH, I didn't think there was one (insert large JOKE tag, as per my earlier email, and it makes more (or less) sense)

Although there are a few RO's I'd like to win as prizes, if there was a RO prize table...

On the classifier thing...no, I'll start a new thread on that one and save the moderators from having to split a topic.

Alex

[BDH]

Although there are a few RO's I'd like to win as prizes, if there was a RO prize table...

Hmmm..... send me a PM. I would love to know who you are interested in!

[TRNinTX]

Kevin,

The error in your thinking is that in order to win your class you will generally have to shoot into the next class to do it, then you get bumped. There goes the sandbagging out the window or you stay home from Nats.

Look at the top 16 in any division. How many actually shot "in class"? Not very many did. I don't know if this is a function of the top shooters or if the classification system needs some tweaking.

[Chriss Grube]

Tim,

I was talking about the Section and Area matches to earn the slot. Lets face it not all GM's are created equal. There are the GM's and then there are the GM's that finish well down in with the A's and M's. If Max or TJ, TGO etc. show up the percentages get hit for about a 10% drop. The classification system needs some tweaking. I see the grandbagging as as much of a problem as the sandbagging. If you go to a big match and can't shoot within your class percentage do you really deserve that GM, M, A etc. card? Lot's of people want the card for Ego or to sell stuff, hell he's a GM so he must know how to build a gun or a slide etc. I'd like to see major match performance count more than it does now.

[hopalong]

Chris,

a good bit of the problem of classification vs match performance is the way the classifiers are set up. Have you seen any 30 round field courses in the classification book ?

generally classifiers test gun skills, major matches test much more, agility, speed-flat out and while shooting.

Take me for instance, I am not fleet footed and long field courses usually get my goat, but speed shoots and technical stuff.... he, he, he, that is right down my alley. there fore very soon I will not be able to shoot my classification in a major match as it is going up but I can't seem to run a 4.4 fourty yd dash yet (and never will)

Maybe that will help explain things.

Sam

[Chriss Grube]

That's why the classifiers need fixed and Match performance should count more. Hell I used to be able to make a 100 foul shots in a row, guess what I didn't get drafted into the NBA. This sport is about putting it all together not just standing and shooting they already have a something called bullseye shooting. There are lots of guys that can't do a 4.4 40 but can shoot field courses. TGO, Chuck Bradley, Taran are all damned good shooters and they aint go to win the 100 yard dash. There is more to it than just flat out speed. The stand and shoot stuff is easy to practice so that's what a lot of people do and they get good at it but when they go to the big dance they get left standing at the gate.

[hopalong]

Chriss,

I am with you man but what about the folks who don't shoot anything but club matches, how would you get them classified?

I think that there should be a good mix of classifers, some technical, some stand and shoot hose fests, and some different sized field courses thus testing all abilites and not favoring some. Just my Opininion FWIW

Hopalong

[Chriss Grube]

I haven't looked at all the new classifiers but I would hope that the powers that be were smart enough to put in a few field courses. I know certain ranges have space problems but they should be able to do a few FC's. The other change would be no more of this shoot until you get a good one. You get one shot and can only reshoot it IF you have a major gun malfunction. Loose nut behind the gun doesn't cut it. Hell now if you want to move up quickly all you have to do is go for broke on them. You either burn it down and get a good one or you end up tanking it so bad it doesn't count. It looks like USPSA is starting to count more big matches as classifiers now too. It used to be 3 GM's and then some decisions on performance. I just looked up the new update they counted the A8, TRI State and MASC as classifiers. Got the bump up to A. Damn Guess now I'll actually have to practice.

[schoonie]

Concerning splitting the match with L-10, prod. etc. shooting first followed by limited and open; I am against it!!!!!

I would surely miss the immense pleasure we had ribbing Hopalong or Cliff (thick skinned revolver shooters)!

I like the diversified squads, you constantly get surprised by the things that people do shooting a stage. Sometimes what you see can upset your plan or at least make you re-think the stage. Sometimes it can leave you gasping for breath from laughing so hard.

Besides, splitting us up creates a division within the structure that I don't believe we want as an organization. The winner of Production or Revolver is no less a champion than the winner of Limited or Open. Having split award presentations would seems to cheapen them somehow. Let's shoot together and recognize all the champions together.

[Mistral404]

I think Area and National Matches that have more than 3 GM per Division should have each stage count in the classifier system NOT just the match average.

Furthermore, all the GM statistics should be averaged and the M/A/B/C/D percentages are based on the average GM score not just the high three.

So this would mean that all 24 stages would count in the computation of my standings. This would not result in a changes of classes, I would still be a Limited B shooter.

I know a lot of people shot below their classification at Nationals. There were some legimate explanations for some and for others it truly represented their shooting ability.

For me personally, I had five stages with ammo issues, four stages with mag issues, 6 stages at or above my average, five stages that were ok, and 4 stages I totally tanked.

Under a more statistically valid methodology I would have not changed my classification.

But the foreign national who came in as a B but shooting at the GM level would be moved up as a result of his finish. This would help eliminate sandbagging.

[driver8M3]

It used to be 3 GM's and then some decisions on performance. I just looked up the new update they counted the A8, TRI State and MASC as classifiers.

i think you still need 3 gm's...all of those matches had at least 3. area 5 only had 1 gm in prod, and thus it didnt count for me.

[diehli]

Concerning splitting the match with L-10, prod. etc. shooting first followed by limited and open; I am against it!!!!!

Besides, splitting us up creates a division within the structure that I don't believe we want as an organization. The winner of Production or Revolver is no less a champion than the winner of Limited or Open. Having split award presentations would seems to cheapen them somehow. Let's shoot together and recognize all the champions together.

I think the original suggestion is an interesting one, but judging by the numbers in each Division it should be Lim/L10/Rev and Prod/Open or some combination where Lim and Open aren't happening at the same time and Open happens during the second part of the week so as the award for HOA can be given at the same time (when was the last time that HOA didn't go to Open?). Separate prize tables for each Division—with input from vendors on where they want their prizes and also based somewhat on attendence for each Division (though someone will have to ensure that Rev and Prod aren't left out completely)—along with separate shootoffs.

As far as "a division within the structure" that seems kinda like an oxymoron to me. They're... uh... Divisions! Heck, this is the first year there was some sort of unity in the Divisions (a single Nationals for all 5 Divisions).

[Shipster]

Mistral404

But the foreign national who came in as a B but shooting at the GM level would be moved up as a result of his finish.  This would help eliminate sandbagging.

I Know that in many of the shooting disciplines if you shoot more then two classes above your class you are automatically re-classed. So if a "B" shooter went to the nationals and was shooting Master class scores he would be re-classed after the match. before the awards are awared. I believe that every dog has his day, but with the number of stages and shots fired at level II and III matches that the only dog you will find shooting two classes above is going to be full of sand.

[Ken Kwiat]

Re: Chriss G.'s comments about GM performance at big matches.

Per your logic, at least in Open and Limited this year, we only truly had five GMs competing: TGO, Travis & Mike V. in Limited, Eric and Max in Open.

Also, you refer to Grandbagging as a problem -- what problem(s) does it cause?

The current classification system is what it is, no more, no less. If you want to see it changed to truly only recognize the 95% and higher performers in big matches as the sole criteria, have you proposed a rule change to your Area Director as such?

On the Natls format:

Major kudos to Ray, John, Troy and others responsible for the overall organization and set up of the shooting aspects. In my experience (7th Natls), it went extremely well. I thought they did an excellent job in balancing the course design that offered challenges to Limited, Prod, & Open shooters. "No arbitrations" gives some evidence on how well things ran and the "bullet-proofness" of the stage designs. As this is the way the international matches are done, I particularly liked the "shoot what you brought" vs. the three separate Natls format that we did last year. Like TGO said in his acceptance speech, I didn't talk to any shooters that didn't get a little weak-in-the-knees re:Stage 16 (yea, the one up the hill...).

Great job.

[EricW]

I wish USPSA would consult my social calendar before scheduling the Nationals in the future. I also demand entertainment in the form of dancing girls and *fresh* Bass Ale on tap.

Or...

If Nationals were scheduled the last week of September, we could combine the match with Octoberfest and shoot in funny green hats and lederhosen.