GrumpyOne Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 IMO, the two rulings (one of which you quoted above) make it legal to use at MR & ULSC. But you know when my opinion counts? When I'm the CRO on that stage, and even then the RM may disagree with me. All it takes is one RO/CRO who has a different opinion on the rule, and at the very least you are having a long drawn out discussion on the rules when you should be focused on the shooting. Why risk it? We all hate grey areas in the rules. But when they exist, why would you flirt with them (especially when there is zero advantage to be had?) The grey area is exactly why I've sent an email to Amidon about this issue....three times, since January 5th....and still no reply. Would you like to send one to see if you get a reply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Would you like to send one to see if you get a reply? No, because I won't have a magnet on my belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 So Grumpy -- you're going to have that magnet back behind the hip, and start your mag pouches one pouch width further back? How's that going to work out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 So Grumpy -- you're going to have that magnet back behind the hip, and start your mag pouches one pouch width further back? How's that going to work out? Nik, where does it say the magnet has to be behind the hip? Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). I never suggested using it during the cof, only at MR and ULSC. By the ruling above, I believe you could place it anywhere you wanted that would not interfere with your mag pouches and it would be.ok.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Let's say it is the first stage of the day, and a competitor in Production Division walks to the line with a magazine stuck to a magnet. Can the RO require him to remove the magnet per 6.2.3? 6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Let's say it is the first stage of the day, and a competitor in Production Division walks to the line with a magazine stuck to a magnet. Can the RO require him to remove the magnet per 6.2.3? 6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire. But, is it even considered competitor equipment if it won't be used during the cof? As far as I know, you could have all kinds of stupid stuff hanging off of your belt as long as the gear you will be using, for your division, is in the right place. Edited February 3, 2013 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 If it can hold a mag, even if you're not using it for that purpose, or even if it's empty, it needs to comply with the restrictions on holsters and allied equipment. Think about it this way -- Limited Shooter normally shoots a Glock, has his first pouch at his belly button. He decides to shoot production one day, and simply adds a Beltfeed filled with mags at the appropriate location, leaving his three angled Limited pouches empty and forward of the hip. How many range masters do you think will let him start that way? Want to play in Production? Either lose the magnet or move it to a division compliant location -- perhaps to the rear of the other pouches, or near the small of your back -- preferably not over the spine, in case you fall down..... Rules: Appendix D4: 12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment (revolver speedloaders.moon clips are exempt) -- Yes, see Appendix E3. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. I think that's pretty clear...... Personally, I don't want to have the argument on the range, so you won't find a magnet on my belt. YMMV..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 If it can hold a mag, even if you're not using it for that purpose, or even if it's empty, it needs to comply with the restrictions on holsters and allied equipment. Think about it this way -- Limited Shooter normally shoots a Glock, has his first pouch at his belly button. He decides to shoot production one day, and simply adds a Beltfeed filled with mags at the appropriate location, leaving his three angled Limited pouches empty and forward of the hip. How many range masters do you think will let him start that way? Want to play in Production? Either lose the magnet or move it to a division compliant location -- perhaps to the rear of the other pouches, or near the small of your back -- preferably not over the spine, in case you fall down..... Rules: Appendix D4: 12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment (revolver speedloaders.moon clips are exempt) -- Yes, see Appendix E3. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. I think that's pretty clear...... Personally, I don't want to have the argument on the range, so you won't find a magnet on my belt. YMMV..... But, if the gear he is using, shooting in Production, is all behind the hip, how can you not start him, even if he has mag holders on his belt that are not compliant, but not being used? You are penalizing the shooter for an infraction that has not occurred. You can't move them to open if they haven't used the mag holders that weren't legal for production, and as long as the mag holders the shooter uses are behind the hip, he has met the divisional requirements. Besides, we are still talking about during the cof... Which I specifically did not include in my question. Once again, what's wrong with using a magnet at MR or ULSC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 If it can hold a mag, even if you're not using it for that purpose, or even if it's empty, it needs to comply with the restrictions on holsters and allied equipment. Think about it this way -- Limited Shooter normally shoots a Glock, has his first pouch at his belly button. He decides to shoot production one day, and simply adds a Beltfeed filled with mags at the appropriate location, leaving his three angled Limited pouches empty and forward of the hip. How many range masters do you think will let him start that way? Want to play in Production? Either lose the magnet or move it to a division compliant location -- perhaps to the rear of the other pouches, or near the small of your back -- preferably not over the spine, in case you fall down..... Rules: Appendix D4: 12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment (revolver speedloaders.moon clips are exempt) -- Yes, see Appendix E3. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. I think that's pretty clear...... Personally, I don't want to have the argument on the range, so you won't find a magnet on my belt. YMMV..... But, if the gear he is using, shooting in Production, is all behind the hip, how can you not start him, even if he has mag holders on his belt that are not compliant, but not being used? You are penalizing the shooter for an infraction that has not occurred. You can't move them to open if they haven't used the mag holders that weren't legal for production, and as long as the mag holders the shooter uses are behind the hip, he has met the divisional requirements. Besides, we are still talking about during the cof... Which I specifically did not include in my question. Once again, what's wrong with using a magnet at MR or ULSC? Grumpy, the rules are clear -- if you want to shoot in Production or SS your holster and mag pouches need to be compliant with Appendices Dx item 12 and E3. I can't start you with a mag pouch forward of the required location, and if you've already shot stages with a mag pouch in the wrong location, need to move you to open division. This isn't new..... Amidon's ruling refers to apparel pockets -- not to mag pouches (whether standard or magnetic) -- that are in a non-approved location. And while I'd let slide a magnet on your belt in a compliant position, that you weren't using during a COF, I can't guarantee that everyone will. You really have a few options now: Petition the board for a rule change Petition Amidon to get an interpretation published on the website Shoot the matches with a magnet on your belt and take your chances Take the friggin magnet off your belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 You are penalizing the shooter for an infraction that has not occurred. You can't move them to open if they haven't used the mag holders that weren't legal for production, and as long as the mag holders the shooter uses are behind the hip, he has met the divisional requirements. Incorrect -- the rule does not refer to use. You don't get to declare non-compliant pouches as out of play..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 An example given does not mean that the only locations that are acceptable are apparel pockets. And, are you trying to tell me that you'd move somebody shooting a double stack 9mm to open if they had a couple of SS mag pouches on their belt in front of the hip? Knowing they wouldn't and couldn't be used? But, they are not compliant..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 An example given does not mean that the only locations that are acceptable are apparel pockets. And, are you trying to tell me that you'd move somebody shooting a double stack 9mm to open if they had a couple of SS mag pouches on their belt in front of the hip? Knowing they wouldn't and couldn't be used? But, they are not compliant..... I would, and I would quote the Rule to you, Appendix E3.. Appendix E3: Foremost limit for gun, holster and all other equipment behind the hip bone. Notice how it says ALL. Not "equipment competitor plans to use" I think it is pretty darn simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Grumpy -- if they'd shot a stage yep.... If they hadn't I'd require them to readjust their equipment to be in compliance. In reality, I've never seen anyone do anything that farfetched -- but I've seen plenty of competitors who wanted to game the position of holsters and pouches. That's a no-go. Show up with a magnetic pouch on your belt, and you really have no defense if required to move it to a division compliant position. I suspect that Amidon would draw a distinction between a pocket and a mag pouch -- magnetic or not -- that is in a non-compliant position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Ok, I'll accept that... But....put a clip-on magnet on your pants pocket so that the magnet holds the magazine on the outside rather than putting the magazine inside your pocket... legal? And if so, why wouldn't it be legal on your belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Grumpy, I love you brother. But Damn that horse is long dead. Please stop beating the poor thing. I have to concur that all equipment needs to be on your belt as per division requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Did Skydiver hijack Andy's account? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Just because I am watching the Super Bowl and don't care who wins, I'll ask a question. Why can't a shooter just put a magazine in their pocket? Why do we need to jump through hoops to use a magnet? If it is an academic question then I understand that. If it is a serious question, then I don't understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Ok, I'll accept that... But....put a clip-on magnet on your pants pocket so that the magnet holds the magazine on the outside rather than putting the magazine inside your pocket... legal? And if so, why wouldn't it be legal on your belt? How's that magnet on the belt different from a magnetic pouch? Like it or not they've changed the game. If it looks like a pouch that's legal in any division, it'll need to be in the legal position..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 I'm done. Until I get something back from Amidon, which I believe will never happen, I'll just remove the magnet fom my belt. I still think its a valid question, but I'm tired of fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 If I am the CRO on the stage I will not start you unless your equipment is compliant to the Division you are shooting. If I am on Stage 2 or 3 and you have equipment that is not compliant you are going to open. We have a rule book to follow and specific penalties if you don't comply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Did Skydiver hijack Andy's account? No, I didn't hack Andy's account. I think he misses me... :smile: Thanks for keeping the "improbably cases" seat warm for me. Good to be back after a long break. Missed you guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 VA? No wonder you haven't been posting your rules questions. You haven't been snowed in for months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Did Skydiver hijack Andy's account? No, I didn't hack Andy's account. I think he misses me... :smile: Thanks for keeping the "improbably cases" seat warm for me. Good to be back after a long break. Missed you guys! Welcome back, Ants! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Thanks, Guys! My wife has been keeping me busy with her honey-do list. Starting to make headway and get more time online again. But to bring this thread back on topic, and further beat a dead horse: What if a shooter just has a metal plate on their mag pouch, but they took the time to magnetize their magazines? Edited March 1, 2013 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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